From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 3 Nov 94 20:08:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- >RD> OTOH, I agree with Josh Norton's assessment that one can achieve >RD> enlightenment by meditating on Deputy Dawg cartoons, so maybe the >RD> Tom-Bombadil-and-Durga-Circles are achieving something for those >RD> involved. JM> I suppose so, if one thinks that Tom Bombadil has the same amount JM> of etheric energy available from the past manifestations of it by JM> worshipful followers as say, Pan (in his satyr form). Even though JM> the connection between Pan and Bombadil is intellectually correct, JM> there's more than intellectual symbolism at work in magick. Do you JM> think the emotional "energy" whomped up by all the Tolkien fans there JM> ever were equals the amount raised by followers of Pan throughout JM> ancient history, in quality _or_ quantity? *I* don't... RD> I don't know, because to me the idea of invoking a Tolkien character RD> is fairly ludicruous...meaning, it sure as shootin' wouldn't work for RD> me! OTOH, I think it's possible that the energy may well approach that RD> of religious ecstacy in some cases. It would't be fair for me to sneer RD> at people invoking fictional characters, as one could easily argue RD> that *all* godforms worshipped by anyone at any time are equally RD> fictional. The basic archetypes are there, and I agree with you that RD> the energy of different manifestations of the 'basics' is definitely RD> different--sometimes subtly, sometimes dramatically--it could be that RD> certain people are able to tap the source of the energy as easily RD> through a Bombadil invocation as others are through an invocation of RD> Pan. Well, to be honest, after some considerable thought, I may be modifying my position on this somewhat. I would still hold that past "morphic fields" (for lack of a better term) generated by humans who actively and passionately evoked a godform in the past has a "residual effect" on the present. It's hard to explain, and "residual effect" isn't really it, for my own theories of magick hold that there is a Aetheric dimension tangental to the commonly known four dimensions (3 of space, 1 of time) in which all events/manifestations/monads/et al are interlinked everywhere/when with each other - in all of space and in both the past AND the future. However, the morphic field is only one part of the equation. If enough magickal "energy" is whipped up by a magician (or group) then manifestation and acausal effects will occur - _but_ using a sufficiently "energised" godform, like Pan, will be _easier_ to accomplish. Tying into the "archtype" itself (ie. Bombadil/Pan) also helps. I have a feeling that Gumby would be more difficult than Bombadil to manifest, and Bombadil more difficult than Pan. As far as Josh's point about the Xtians combined morphic fields go, why do you think that you get thousands of Catholics seeing Virgin Mary appearences every year? RD> If you've ever been to a concert, you've probably felt all *kinds* of RD> intense energy that could be described as religious in nature, zipping RD> around. I wonder if there are people invoking James Hetfield even as RD> we type...or how bout those weird people at Star Trek conventions? Can RD> you feature 'The Invocation of Spock'? ::shudder::...scary thought! RD> =:o Hey, I've always held that magickal rituals should be more like rock concerts! When I do group rites, I want black lights, strobes, smoke machines, digital music playback, samplers, synthesizers... > guess I tend to shy away from the Eastern forms due to personal quirk; one > of my "buttons" is that Westerners have a very ancient and beautiful > mystical tradition - it's called _Magick_. So many people turn to Eastern > mysticism because they think there is something inherently superior in it. > (I'm not saying this is _your_ motivation, at least not now.) This irks me. > It's a denial of our own Western mystical heritage, that organised > Christianity almost exterminated, and managed to connect with "evil". RD> I was very young when I started out with yoga, and the only reason I RD> connected was some personal 'pull.' If I believed in the reincarnation RD> of individual souls--which, for the record, I don't--I spoze I'd RD> conclude that I'd lived in India before. As is, I guess it's a matter RD> of 'subconscious personal taste.' RD> Still, taking your illustration above vis Bombadil-vs.-Pan , RD> turning to Hindu/yogic philosophy/religion would seem to make tons of RD> inherent sense--I can't personally think of another religion that has RD> been practiced *continually* as long as 'Hinduism.' The esoteric RD> 'heart' of the philosophy seems to me to be much of the basis of the RD> western magical tradition--along with Judaism and re-constructed RD> Egyptian spirituality. Well, I think one has to "resonate" with whatever one is seeking to work with, regardless of how much of a morphic field has been whomped up, and the Hindu model doesn't do it for me - but that's only _my_ personal taste and not a put down of anyone else's way of doing the Work. ... You can do anything thou wilt at Aleister's Restaurant. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 5 Nov 94 08:17:54 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > RD> Hiya Josh...hope you're not upset about my having evoked > RD> you without asking first. ;> > > (confused) Eh? Just a joke, son...I quoted something you'd said in another context on a wholly different thread, but I thought it was kinda germaine so I didn't ask if it was Ok first. > And SOooo much less depressing. Something about all that tragic noble > angst in Tolkein really drains me. Almost as much as M.Z. Bradley's > stuff. You can't beat old Warner Bros toons for showing characters with real, developed personalities, who never lose the ability to entertain. Maybe X-Men would be closer to Tolkien characters...or 'King Arthur & the Knights of Justice.' Animaniacs are prob the closest thing to the classic W-B we've got going for Gen X type kids today I have a real fondness for Scooby Doo, but no idea where to fit him and his into the schema...Speed Racer could maybe be a one-dimensional YHVH, with Racer X as the mysterious, descending Shin...this is getting more ridiculous by the word, so I'll spare you. > Heh. I think it was a joke, actually. Bugs makes a good representative > of the rebel and wrench-in-the-works aspects of Set, but I'd say he's > more Erisian, overall. And consider that carrots are orange and green, > the colors of Hod and Netzach, the spheres of the Intellect and the > self-image. These are the spheres that are most affected by Erisian > mind-f*cks. Bugs nibbles on carrots the way Eris nibbles at the minds > and egos of her victims. Couldja see Bugs as Loki, and Fudd as Odhinn? Bugs even dressed up in drag from time to time to distract Elmer--or whomever. ;> > Elmer's a bit too anal-retentive for Horus, though his fondness for > weapons might be Horus-like. More Osirian, maybe? He does represent > Established Authority -- notice how often he shows up in the cartoons in > uniforms? Maybe Yosemite Sam as Horus? Where do Coyote and Road Runner fit in? I thought I remembered you discoursing most learne'dly on that pair at one point. ;> > Well...The Church of Satan did use the Calls, but I don't know if they > ever actually contacted the Enochian beings, or used the Tablets as part > of a religious system. Does that count as "worship"? Given that they > replaced the names of god with the word "Satan" in all the Calls, I > doubt the contacts would have been very satisfactory. I doubt that would count as worship...the CoS was pretty adamant about not even 'worshipping' Satan, weren't they? D'you know if they claimed to have any good results from the use of the Calls? Hmmm...they didn't replace the names of the Enochian dudes with 'Satan' did they? If not, the contacts could've been satisfactory. Would be interesting to see what kind of schtuff was obtained. Aren't the Enochian entities pretty flexible about revealing themselves within the basic structure the magician best understands and is most experienced with? > Earth. My current thought -- not yet fully developed -- is that they are > a manifestation of some sort of meta-schema, of which the local schemas > used on different worlds are particularizations. Is there anyplace in your writings where you discourse on this line of thought? Nice yakkin atcha! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Christeos Pir 5 Nov 94 07:48:06 Subject: Re: CHAOS 1/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Tsk... sorry to hear that. If it ain't one thing it's another, no? You got that right! Well, I've got a couplea people trying to fix 'er up for me...and if worse comes to worst, I can pick up a brand new HP Deskwriter/Deskjet for a couple hundred. :> > Paul can print them out for me, but I don't know if he can _convert_ > them. I don't have a way to convert these. You _could_ settle for > hardcopy, but so far we're at almost 90 pps, and he's only up to #16 of > 91! Maybe I could E-mail them to you one at a time, and you can grab > 'em off the board? If you can read 3.5" diskettes, the newer Macs have a File Conversion Program--if I save em as text only--or even as MS Word, I think--someone with a newer Mac could slap em in the FCP, I *think* and you could just slap them into your disk drive. If you have 5.25's, then we're both outa luck. ;> Forget the hardcopy idea...that'd cost a mint to mail! Is it all available in the Arena's file section? If so, we could just do a FReq, no? Unless Josh wants them kept out of file areas for some reason, it'd be nice to have it available here on the board as well. I could send a Mac disk, but I think it'd take Paul a while to print out...I've got at least one fairly lengthy file that I know you were interested in seeing. If you're not too impatient, I should have a fixed printer, or a new printer, before the end of the month...it'd be sooner, but I've got lots of 'schtuff' going on, know what I mean? ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Andy Bender 7 Nov 94 21:22:02 Subject: Re: Autonomatrix initiat UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Andy Bender zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "Autonomatrix initiations"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: AB> No group, whether it be a Golden Dawn spin-off or a band of chaotes, AB> need conceive of this idea. One would imagine that this is inherent AB> in anything that the individual magician does. If the individual does AB> not already know that he shouldn't join a group that he doesn't find AB> worthy of him, he's already off to a bad start. Just because the *individual* ought to know it doesn't mean the _groups_ necessarily realize it. And, as much as the groups shouldn't *have to* conceive of this idea, the fact remains that most of them honestly haven't yet, and could therefore stand to be introduced to it. --Kai MacTane. ... If God took acid, would he see people? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 4 Nov 94 16:08:02 Subject: Re: chaos UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rose Dawn zwan Joseph Max ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: chaos, n'qah? RD> If you've ever been to a concert, you've probably felt all RD> *kinds* of intense energy that could be described as RD> religious in nature, zipping around. I wonder if there are RD> people invoking James Hetfield even as we type...or how RD> bout those weird people at Star Trek conventions? Can you RD> feature 'The Invocation of Spock'? ::shudder::...scary RD> thought! =:o I see you haven't yet heard about the "Klingon Wicca/Trekkiolatry" thread that recently incandesced its way from one end of the _Wicca_ echo to the other. I'm still a little unclear on whether people were proposing reconstructing Klingon religion (from *what*, I have no idea), worshipping Klingon deities in a Wiccan framework (again, where they'd get the Klingon deities I have no idea, since no Star Trek series or movie has given us jack to go on in terms of what Klingon religion is like), worshipping human deities while dressed as Klingons, or actually worshipping the Klingons themselves. In fact, I'm not entirely sure the pro-Klingon side was sure what they were proposing. But the thread is basically dead now. RD> allowed. And I emphatically disagree with those who insist RD> that *no* ritual should ever be attempted until every RD> nuance, every word, every gesture, has been committed to RD> memory... Aside from the practical considerations, that level of over-analysis tends to pretty well kill the ritual for its performer(s). It becomes sterile, barren and dead. --Kai MacTane. ... Magickal echoes are tricky things. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 4 Nov 94 16:52:04 Subject: Re: chaos, reply part ii UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Rose Dawn zwan Joseph Max ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: chaos, reply part ii, n'qah? > In a martial arts dojo, if I thought I deserved a higher rank than white > belt when I joined, I would be invited to prove myself in competition with > the others. I would be given a rank commesurate with who I managed > to defeat and how high I could take it. RD> RD> I'm not a martial artist, and never have been, but my ex is, and from RD> personal experience I've seen the possible *negative* RD> results of that type of structure! I also am not a martial artist. My knowledge of it is gained basically from books alone, but I think I have some feel for the "spirit" of the Arts, even if I don't know the moves. A few comments: RD> One of Wolf's former sensei's was a complete #*%$!, who was in RD> the habit of attacking anyone who happened to be handy RD> when he got into a bad mood. I have encountered people before who have had their reflexes trained to hair-trigger, no-thought violence by any of various schools, including military/"special forces"-types. I have never found it to be a good idea for anything other than Rambo wannabes. If you are learning the Art for spiritual purposes, then part of the point is *control*. If your reflexes will go off and put someone through a wall for saying "boo!", you're _not_ in control. If you are learning the art for self-defense (which makes sense in today's society, especially for those who follow spiritual avenues elsewhere), then some measure of control is still called for, though more physical and less mental. Psychotic reactions are still not "control." Also, you still have to live life in a civilized society, where such reactions could endanger your friends, relatives, and strangers in your vicinity. This is irresponsible. If you're learning the physical moves because you expect to have to go on raids deep into enemy territory and you don't plan on ever rejoining civilian life, *then* such training might make sense. Of course, I notice that your phrasing about this guy suggests that these weren't even trained reflexes, but rather personal choices. More on that later. RD> He held black belts in RD> several disciplines, and used the 'moves' to his advantage RD> against old men, people so drunk they could barely stand RD> up, much less defend themselves, skinny teeny-boppers, and RD> his girlfriends. The guy could kick ass, no question, but RD> there's no 'inner quality' to him at *all*. It is my position that no respectable sensei should have given this man a belt higher than, say, third in a nine- or ten-belt system. And when he comes and passes the next exam, the sensei should take him aside and explain to him, at great length and as kindly as possible, exactly *why* he has not achieved the next belt: because, as Miyagi-san has said, "Karate is [in the mind], and [in the heart.] Never [in the color of your belt.]" And, as Master Funakoshi said, "If the cause is just, the karateka will charge into battle, be it against one man or ten thousand. But if the cause is not just, the karateka will not fight, no matter if it cost him his life." And the sensei should put to him as a /koan/ the question: what is it in your heart and in your mind that causes you to seek out battles that are unjust? (NOTE: Miyagi's saying was actually "Karate is here, and here, never here," using gestures to the forehead, the heeart, and the belly. Let me know if you disagree with my translations.) Of course, the guy probably would not accept the koan, or the sensei's judgement, and would find some other dojo that would give him the black belt he wanted. RD> Not to say that this tendency would have been rooted out if RD> he'd been subjected to more restriction as far as 'belt- RD> ranks' go, Most certainly; I suspect the only help would have lain in therapy (or a sensei so involved and compassionate as to qualify as a therapist!). But... I have heard on many occasions that one who teaches magick accepts the karma for whatever the student does. I don't completely accept that; people are individuals, and they make their own decisions, even when given all the training in the world. Heck, sometimes they just decide the teacher was a fool not to see , and do their own thing. And what one person does, *they* take the karma for, not someone else. -=BUT=-, I think the teacher *absolutely* does take karmic return for _having_taught_that_student_. If a student comes in and starts asking me how to cast specific love spells, because he says it would be really fun to be able to make any woman want to sleep with him, I'm not going to teach that guy! If a guy shows himself to use his martial arts knowledge to beat up his girlfriends, intimidate the weak and oppress the helpless, no decent sensei -- hell, no decent *human being* -- should continue to teach this guy any arts of violence. Let him learn /ikebana/, instead! End of Rant. :) --Kai MacTane. ... Call me insane one more time and I'll eat your other eye! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Gaia Area: MagickNet To: Neural Shaman 8 Nov 94 02:22:00 Subject: Mistaken echo, feeling . UpdReq and Neural dicoursed upon Mistaken echo, feeling . N S> Excuse me (sheepish ), but for some reason I thought I N S>was posting this in the "God" Echo which is male only. I have no N S>idea how I could have made such a stupid mistake (feeling both N S>surprised, confused and amused), though I did sort of remeber at the N S>time thinking (giving myself credit on that, ), I saw one of the N S>little people lurking around so ... N S>along the path, mortified and bemused GAIA, SMILING: Hey, relax, we all make mistakes....I made one, once.... (cough, choke, dodging lightning from On High> I really like your handle. Are you a psych(something)? 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Restivo Area: MagickNet To: All 7 Nov 94 21:29:52 Subject: Seeking info... UpdReq I was wondering if anyone could possibly steer me in the right direction (as far as adress or ANYTHING) for the Temple of Set. I have some info on them and am very interested, but am having a hard time (of course) finding any futher information on them. I would greatly appreciate any help!! Thanx!! Coroner 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Andrew Hotopp 7 Nov 94 21:20:00 Subject: Re: tell us tell us UpdReq -=> Yglr'th Andrew Hotopp zrlq Kai Mactane z'qwan "Re: tell us tell us"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: AH> Cool. Thanks man. Oh yeah... what is all that stuff at the top of AH> each message? and what does it mean? all that y'nath irqie what ever AH> stuff. later. That's my quote header. Most people leave 'em in English; I do mine in Old High R'lyehian. It basically means something like "Remember talking to about that stuff? Well, here, they said:" Or something like that. In H.P. Lovecraft's tales, R'lyeh was the city that sank under the waves and is now home to Cthulhu. The saying "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh ngah'wagl fhtagn" means (something like) "In drowned R'lyeh dead Cthulhu lies dreaming." So it's all fiction. It's still fun. :) --Kai MacTane. ... Cthulhu, eh? If he's so powerful, why is he still ugly? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Cijan Nee Grania 4 Nov 94 17:00:06 Subject: Re: universal laws? UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Cijan Nee Grania zwan Sewa Yoleme ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Universal laws?, n'qah? CNG> Let me say first that I work from a witches prespective rather than a CNG> magicians. I have a MA in para-psy, which strikes many as an odd CNG> combination. I tend to say "As above so below, as within so without." No, I'm just wondering where you got the M.A. Is it from JFK University, or did you do some kind of Design-Your-Own-Study program somewhere else? Or has another university started a parapsych program and failed to notify me? :) If it's from JFK, what's the place like? I understand it's very young, and know it's located a little inland from San Francisco, but otherwise am clueless. Fill me in? --Kai MacTane. ... Getting older is mandatory; growing up is optional. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718