From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: NEURAL SHAMAN 30 Oct 94 01:43:34 Subject: Re: Socialistic? Not! UpdReq -> aside to Moderator -> I am wondering what exactly are the topic parameters for th -> echo? It would appear from the messages that anything goes (the only -> limit is that participants must be males). So who you callin' a male, huh? Me 'n' Rose Dawn iz here...how much more woman do you need?? :) 8 )> (bikini smiley) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 31 Oct 94 03:50:28 Subject: Re: REPLY UpdReq As promised, the joke I didn't have the energy for last time I wrote: Seems this little bitty kid is looking out the window at a couple of dogs who are having, er, carnal relations in the street. "Oooooohhh, Daddy," he pipes, "what's *that*??" Daddy thinks for a moment, decided Junior is too young to understand the full explanation yet, and answers, "They're making puppies." The kid's eyes get big and impressed and he goes, "Oooh, NEAT!!", and toddles off. Later that night, he gets up to get a drink of water, and as sleepy little kids will, he wanders off course a bit. By the time he accidentally wanders into his parents' room, they too are making love. His eyes VERY large this time, the kid gasps, "Daddy, Mommy, WHAT ARE YOU DOING???" Dad smiles weakly and says, "Well actually, honey, we're trying to make you a new brother or sister." Crestfallen, the boy whines, "Aww, Daddy, turn her over. I'd MUCH rather have a puppy." (And now, Mr. Moderator, we really will get back on topic...honest.) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 30 Oct 94 08:52:20 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy JM! >RD> OTOH, I agree with Josh Norton's assessment that one can achieve >RD> enlightenment by meditating on Deputy Dawg cartoons, so maybe the >RD> Tom-Bombadil-and-Durga-Circles are achieving something for those >RD> involved. > > I suppose so, if one thinks that Tom Bombadil has the same amount ofetheric > energy available from the past manifestations of it by worshipful followers > as say, Pan (in his satyr form). Even though the connection between Pan and > Bombadil is intellectually correct, there's more than intellectualsymbolism > at work in magick. Do you think the emotional "energy" whomped up byall the > Tolkien fans there ever were equals the amount raised by followers of Pan > throughout ancient history, in quality _or_ quantity? *I* don't... I don't know, because to me the idea of invoking a Tolkien character is fairly ludicruous...meaning, it sure as shootin' wouldn't work for me! OTOH, I think it's possible that the energy may well approach that of religious ecstacy in some cases. It would't be fair for me to sneer at people invoking fictional characters, as one could easily argue that *all* godforms worshipped by anyone at any time are equally fictional. The basic archetypes are there, and I agree with you that the energy of different manifestations of the 'basics' is definitely different--sometimes subtly, sometimes dramatically--it could be that certain people are able to tap the source of the energy as easily through a Bombadil invocation as others are through an invocation of Pan. If you've ever been to a concert, you've probably felt all *kinds* of intense energy that could be described as religious in nature, zipping around. I wonder if there are people invoking James Hetfield even as we type...or how bout those weird people at Star Trek conventions? Can you feature 'The Invocation of Spock'? ::shudder::...scary thought! =:o > guess I tend to shy away from the Eastern forms due to personal quirk; one > of my "buttons" is that Westerners have a very ancient and beautiful > mystical tradition - it's called _Magick_. So many people turn to Eastern > mysticism because they think there is something inherently superior in it. > (I'm not saying this is _your_ motivation, at least not now.) This irks me. > It's a denial of our own Western mystical heritage, that organised > Christianity almost exterminated, and managed to connect with "evil". I was very young when I started out with yoga, and the only reason I connected was some personal 'pull.' If I believed in the reincarnation of individual souls--which, for the record, I don't--I spoze I'd conclude that I'd lived in India before. As is, I guess it's a matter of 'subconscious personal taste.' Still, taking your illustration above vis Bombadil-vs.-Pan , turning to Hindu/yogic philosophy/religion would seem to make tons of inherent sense--I can't personally think of another religion that has been practiced *continually* as long as 'Hinduism.' The esoteric 'heart' of the philosophy seems to me to be much of the basis of the western magical tradition--along with Judaism and re-constructed Egyptian spirituality. The western mystical heritage stems from a lot of sources...so while I wouldn't say that the 'eastern model' is inherently superior, I wouldn't say that about the 'western model' either. Being half Irish and half Lithuanian, if I *really* wanted to be true to my roots, I spoze I'd be practicing some weird Celtic/Baltic amalgam, and I never felt particularly attracted to *that* idea! ;> > Neither do I, so I try to adopt an state of belief in which it does not > matter. "By doing certain things, certain results will follow... ." Yup, I hear that. > There are no "observers" at a Temple meeting, no neophytes merely_watching_ > the "masters" perform ritual work. You learn ceremonial magick byperforming > ceremony, like you learn to swim by getting in the water! No one is > excluded from Temple rituals, not candidates or even first time visitors. With the exception of the initiations themselves, this has been my experience as well. The very first time I met 'the locals' here, I had my daughter with me, and we participated in a very simple ritual along with everyone else. I'm also particularly reminded of the EGC Mass, where everyone attending is expected to Communicate--no 'lookie-loo's' allowed. And I emphatically disagree with those who insist that *no* ritual should ever be attempted until every nuance, every word, every gesture, has been committed to memory--I've learned just about every 'basic rit' by practicing with script in hand. Sticks in the memory so much more readily that way, than trying to memorize words on paper. > It wouldn't be much of an initiation if it didn't provide the proverbial > boot-to-the-head! You're not being vague, and I understand exactly what you > mean. It's like trying to describe sex to a virgin... Yup! Some things just *gotta* be communicated through direct experience! ;> > initiations, a lot of teaching and learning gets done - in _both_ > directions! In the OTO style, exclusionism is the price of the group > intimacy shared by the "inner" members, who cannot discuss theirinitiations > with anyone who hasn't undergone it without breaking oaths. This is one of > those little weak spots where "indoctrination" and metaphysical entropy can > set in; there is only one-way feedback - from other people who are with you > up the ladder of hierarchy or above you. This can effectively stiflehealthy > re-examination and subsequent evolution of thought through a lack of > "independent" observation by those outside the loop. I won't deny that it's possible; I don't think it's a major problem though. For one thing, initiation to me *is* something that must be experienced to be understood, and the experience is nigh impossible to explain accurately to someone who hasn't undergone it. The inner experience of 'Initiation', and not the outward ceremony and ritual associated therewith is--to me--the *important* part anyway! I can discuss that till I'm blue in the face without breaking any oaths, and find that people who have undergone Initiation of *any* sort, O.T.O., Wiccan, Sakthipat, or as a personal inner experience brought about by life itself, understand exactly what I'm talking about. Those who haven't, don't. So I don't feel that their independent observation would be particularly valuable in encouraging re-examination and evolution, *for me*. The inner experience are diverse enough, even with people who have undergone an identical ritual to mine, that there's plenty of room for discussion, independent observation , and personal re-evaluation. I also think it's extremely important that each individual be able to honestly evaluate, re-evaluate, and revise him/herself, or be working toward a state where this is possible, without *any* outside input necessary, from members of the same group or from those outside it. The state of entropy comes from within...the solution to breaking free from it had best come from within as well, if it's to be truly effective. I'm about to run out of room...cya next message! Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 30 Oct 94 09:06:22 Subject: CHAOS, CONTINUED UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Ok, this is a continuation of where I just left off. ;> > One thing I'll hand to Pete Carroll in his original structure for the Pact > of the IOT was the idea of the Office of the Insubordinate. EachPact Temple > Master was to be assigned, from the 4th degree (neophyte) circle, an > official Insubordinate. Hir job is to be the "court jester": toquestion the > descisions of the MT, to make fun of them when they fuck up, to ask > questions about anything that the MT is unclearly teaching, and to be the > advocate and ombudsman for the neophyte ranks. This was an attempt at > putting "checks and balances" into the idea of a magickal lodge. It works, > with varying degrees of success I'm told, but what a GREAT idea! It was a great idea when Aleister Crowley had it, too. I can't remember the name of the Office in the O.T.O. structure--I've heard it referred to popularly as the "Revolutionary." The respective descriptions of the duties of 'Insubordinate' and 'Revolutionary' sound virtually identical, though. > Pretty well, actually. It seems that there is a self-limiting factorat work > in the impartaiton of magickal knowledge. You absorb what you are ready to > understand, and the rest makes the eyes glaze over. People who have visited > Templespace who we thought weren't right for us, simply never came back and > had no desire on their part to return anyway. Those who work out we seem to > _know_ in advance that they will, and they're the ones who _want_ to come > back! That's pretty much been my experience as well. Fairly often, I've read something and muttered "whatta buncha bs!"...only to re-approach the same material at a later point, and have one of those "AHA!" reactions. Or one of those "Ohh...duuuuuh!" reactions, which at heart seem to be the same thing. I do note, however, that , the Body of Work is *not* given out to anyone off the street who happens to request it. So, while the AX may not have restricted material for 'lower degrees' within the organization, there is an element of confidentiality at work here...yes? Or, if I told you that I had no interest whatsoever in initiating with the AX, but wanted to see what its members had been doing, would you provide me with copies of the entire Body of Work? If not, how do you see that as fundamentally different from the confidentiality requirements within the O.T.O. and similar Orders? Ok, looks like we're about done with this one...on to yer next. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 30 Oct 94 09:52:06 Subject: Re: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. >RD> NEwayz, I kind of look at the O.T.O.'s Degree structure, not as a way >RD> of manipulating initiates, or a carrot-and-stick method, but more an >RD> attempt to approximate the general 'time-frame' that the individual >RD> progression toward wisdom and understanding would take. > > Well, I have a minor problem with that idea, in that it is impossible to > estimate such things, IMHO. Take _me_, for example (please!). All I agree--it *is* impossible. I don't consider the approximation 'perfect' by any means...but rather, a good-conscience attempt to estimate generally. With so many initiates, it simply isn't possible to consider all the possible factors that affect us all as individuals. I don't see the Degree structure--especially in the MoE Degrees...as representative of the individual's personal magical/spiritual development; nor do I think the Order intends them to be taken that way. I also don't see it as any major big deal; certainly not as a limiting factor. So I have to wait a few months before I'm eligible for my next initiation...so what? It's not supposed to be a race! Having a specific Degree in an Outer Order definitely doesn't limit me to studying and practicing *only* the material recommended for people holding that Degree, and I don't. Since I think the Work done on an individual basis is the most important Work, I neither see my O.T.O. Degree as a limit to what I can do, or as anything to be particularly proud of...it's what I'm doing personally, how much I understand, how far I'm going, and with what degree of Success, that matters to me. Same thing when I look at other initiates--it's not their Degree that tells me anything about them as a person, or the state of their magical 'career,' but what they say, what they do, how they behave. > realise that the point is to "level the playing field" so to speak, so that > no one feels like others are getting "special privliges", but the process > would annoy me to no end, so I guess I'll never get around to joining an OTO lodge. Good call. ;> I'm not being sarcastic--the O.T.O. has a structure, and those who disagree with or are un-amenable to its structure are certainly free not to initiate. 'Convert not....' Not everyone will be interested in or suited for the O.T.O.; same goes for any of the various 'Chaos Orders', neo-Pagan religions, satanic Orders, etc. Not everyone will want to work with others at all, on any basis, for that matter. The best we can hope for it to find an organization--or decide not to affiliate with any group, however loosely organized--as best fits our personal needs. > In a martial arts dojo, if I thought I deserved a higher rank than white > belt when I joined, I would be invited to prove myself in competition with > the others. I would be given a rank commesurate with who I managed > to defeat > and how high I could take it. I think perhaps even a magickal lodge I'm not a martial artist, and never have been, but my ex is, and from personal experience I've seen the possible *negative* results of that type of structure! Coming up through the ranks seems to almost always impart a sense of discipline and balance that simple native talent does *not*. One of Wolf's former sensei's was a complete #*%$!, who was in the habit of attacking anyone who happened to be handy when he got into a bad mood. He held black belts in several disciplines, and used the 'moves' to his advantage against old men, people so drunk they could barely stand up, much less defend themselves, skinny teeny-boppers, and his girlfriends. The guy could kick ass, no question, but there's no 'inner quality' to him at *all*. Not to say that this tendency would have been rooted out if he'd been subjected to more restriction as far as 'belt-ranks' go, or that such situations are common; merely pointing out that there is a down-side and potential for abuse with what seems to be a very fair and equal system, as well. > from the bottom, etc, etc, etc... This is why I like the A:.X's system so > much - it bypasses all that stuff by eliminating "ranks". Respect and > "position" in the Guild is based solely on demonstratable ability and the > respect of the fellow guild members. Does it really, though? We *are* still human beings, and as such, will have definite preferences and prejudices, no matter how much we work to uproot them. Would a talented magician who is a complete jerk be accorded the respect of his/her fellow Guild members, and advanced commensurate with his/her 'talents'? What about a popular person that everyone really enjoyed being around, who simply had less natural talent? It's not a failing to prefer certain characteristics to others, it's human nature. I don't think any ass-kissing and politicking would be necessary on anyone's part to 'advance' in some cases, further than an objective look at one's individual development would seem to indicate. I mean, who makes those decisions, really? > Which is the basic problem I have with the "rank system". It's too easy to > attain rank by brown-nosing the right people; when in reality, as you point > out, it is really not a dependable measure of actual ability I'd say just as much potential exists for the brown-noser to *restrict* his own advancement, as to attain. Personally, when I sense that someone is sucking up to me for some reason, I react with disgust rather than pleasure. Trample the sycophants! > This is not true, Rose. I have a friend who is a 3rd degree member of the > OTO lodge in Berkeley. He went through a series of workings on his own and > in the process was confronted by a spiritual entity that identified itself > as "Babylon". He asked for it to give him signs to "prove" it's identity, > and such signs were given, but he was not able to interpret them. Sohe went > to the higher-ups at his lodge and explained what he had done and asked for > their help in interpretation. Their only reply: "It's beyond your grade." He > even put it to them like this: don't reveal anything to me, just tell me if > the signs I was given make any sense! Again: "It's beyond your grade." He > almost quit right there, but now is concentrating on starting his > own camp. I see the possibility that these people may have been trying to tell him something important; i.e., if you can't interpret the signs yourself, it obviously *is* 'beyond your grade.' Do you see the possibility that it may not have been his *degree* referred to, but his 'grade' as represented by his inability to decipher the signs given himself? A more 'zen' way of putting it might have been something like: "Does it make any sense?" A: "Well...does it?" Since the implied answer was 'No,' I don't think "It's beyond your grade" is an entirely inappropriate answer. Disclaimer: I know nothing about the specific circumstances you've described, so am just speculating on possibilities other than haughty rigidity on the part of the 'higher-ups', but I think such possibilities *do* exist, the above being one example of such. > Obviously, if the entity saw fit to reveal certain things to him, he was > READY, regardless of his grade! This underscores the main problemwith grade > structures - what gives one fallible group of humans the right to judge > another human's readiness for knowledge, and where do they get off denying > such knowledge (which was obviously ready to be recieved) to a lodge > brother! One would think that if he--or anyone--was ready, though, that he wouldn't need to ask for assistance from higher-up's in deciphering the revelations. Rather than seeing it as denying knowledge ready to be received, the situation could be seen as a way of saying "figure it out yourself. If you can't, you aren't ready. If you can, you don't need us to tell you!" There are ways to obtain knowledge other than from mouth-to-ear, ways that *can't* be denied or withheld by any human being. IMHO, those are the ways that matter most. Direct experience is the most obvious example, but there are other sources, such as books, personal discussion, meditation, etc. A little trouble searching such methods out on the part of the individual would seem a boon rather than a bane, to me. > Again, who are they to judge? Perhaps the person _must_ confront unknown > forces in order to grow. If it is their will to take the chance, give them > enough rope, I always say. Either they'll hang or they'll swing... Sure. And no outside force *can* inhibit such personal growth. Degrees in any Order are not blocks to that type of inner experience, nor can they be. Looks like I need to invoke my Spiritual Editor...almost outa room again. CNM. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 30 Oct 94 10:36:08 Subject: CHAOS II, CONTINUED UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Owell...since I respond online and off-the-cuff, I guess I have *some* excuse for my long-windedness. :/ Let's see, where were we.... > How much of your hesitation is due to the fact that it's not done that way > in the group you belong to? I don't know. Certainly some of it. OTOH, I don't think the Order 'owes' me an effortless ride...life certainly doesn't! If I'm ready for more, more is always available. Not necessarily from my local body head , or local initiates, or higher-up's...it might take some investigation and/or some direct experience to find the 'more'. I don't see that as a hindrance. If I'm too lazy to do the work on my own, I'm probably *not* 'ready'! If I have the self-discipline, interest, and Will to seek out the 'more' myself, it's definitely there, and available, and ultimately much more satisfying and assimilable than if another individual pulled me aside and 'whispered it into my ear.' > You were very lucky to have had such a relationship these days when such > relationships are abused on a regular basis... I realize that. I've been very fortunate in a lot of respects. Still, there's a quality of discernment at play as well, and an intuitive sense of when someone is trying to take advantage, and the personal pref' of telling everyone to get hosed and going my own way, rather than falling blindly into line behind something I think is wrong. 'Getting taken' would be a way of learning how *not* to get taken again, and with so many cosmic rip-off artists in the world today, that's a lesson *all* of us had best learn as quickly and thoroughly as possible, if we want to be something more than sheep or doormats. > But you must admit there is a limiting factor at work. A rank beginner > usually _can't_ assume a full lotus or plough position _anyway_ without > practice and working up to it. But they can--and do!--have the arrogance to assume that they can, and injure themselves. This is *not* an assertion that knowledge is dangerous on my part but rather something relating back to what you said earlier. What gives a group of fallible human beings the right to judge another person's 'readiness'? The individual being 'judged' is also a fallible human being, and might well be misjudging his/her own readiness to proceed. A little humility is not a bad thing! Being 'forced' to wait a while for one's next degree within a structured Order can be a valuable experience in dispassionate assessment of one's own inner state, if such is needed. If not needed, what does it harm? As I've said, I believe that whatever we're ready for it out there, waiting to be taken, and no one has ever tried to hamper my personal growth from within the O.T.O. > Sure. But I can go get a book from the library that details _all_ of that > information. It isn't _secret knowledge _. The book will contain many > warnings about proper conditioning and working up slowly, as is proper, but > if I'm fool enough to ignore them, well.... And I can get books from the library...or a bookstore...or download files from a bbs...that contain all the magical information I need as well! I think Crowley was simply telling the flat truth when he said that all the 'secret knowledge' was published plainly and available to anyone who had the 'eyes to see' it. And that proviso does more than any amount of warnings about proper conditioning or cautions about working up slowly could ever do, to put magical development in its proper place. If I don't 'get it' I can't use it...or abuse it. If I *do* 'get it,' it's there, and my O.T.O. degree will not hinder my understanding of it...or help it along, for that matter. >RD> 'Family Unit' is the world's oldest 'Secret Order' in many ways. It >RD> doesn't equate to me to say that childbearing should be abolished to >RD> protect against all the potential abuses. The human race wouldn't last >RD> very long if it did! > > Point taken - and it's not as if a Guild like the A:.X doesn't allow for > other types of problems to arise. As in most groups, dynamics alwaysdevelop > between individuals where they fall into "leader" and "follower" roles, > however inadvertently. A system without a set structure will tend to evolve > it's own dynamic of relationships within the group, so it is rather like > anarchy instead of hierarchy! The fact that these are often hidden Ironically--and from a purely personal standpoint--my experience has been that the local group here actually, actively *discourages* leader/follower roles. Ironically, because we *are* a structured Order. We've always been encouraged to work individually, to our own capacity, and to formulate decisions together as a group, without any "Ok, now you do this, and you do that...." But yes, groups *will* evolve their own heirarchies to some extent, even with no dogmatic leader/follower relationship. A structured system no less so than a non-structured system. I've personally 'learned' more from talking and inter-acting with certain Minervals, or certain non-initiates, than with people whose degrees are higher than mine, *in some cases.* In other cases, those with higher degrees have 'been where I'm at' and have very valuable advice to impart to me. The degrees mean that the individual holding that degree has met certain requirements, including time constraints, general courses of study, etc., necessary to advance to that degree. Why should those requirements be inherently 'bad'? The degree itself is no bar to further study or practice. I guess I just haven't personally encountered the pettiness and politicking on any wide scale, that you refer to throughout, so I tend to ignore the 'potentials for abuse' that exist, because I haven't experienced the *reality* of any such abuse. It'd drive me nuts to try to ascertain and uproot *any* and *every* potential for abuse that exists within any system, so I deal with them if/when they arise in my own life, and if they don't, why waste time worrying about what *might* happen on *could* happen...it might could happen even with the most careful preparation. The 'Chaos System' was originally seen as a way to do away with the petty bickering and politicking, yes? Even a brief perusal of alt.magick indicates that, in reality, this is simply not the case. This isn't attended as an attack on you personally, or on a system that works well for you, truly. Simply a reiteration of something you no doubt already know: the best intentions can and will go awry when being implemented by any group of individuals. I don't see 'Chaos' as inherently 'better' than 'Order.' What works best for *me*? Ok...then do it, and no other shall say nay! > won't deny. I won't bother to lay out the problems inherent in anarchic > systems, as they are well known and the Guild has had it's share.Suffice it > to say that for myself, my nature rebels too easily against "authority > figures" that have the authority bestowed on them by "the system". For > individual merit earned by individual effort I have infinite respect. I > respect _results_, and _demonstratable knowledge_. What happened to I don't think we fundamentally disagree. I think we simply seek manifestation of individual effort and progress in divergent 'systems.' I think this is as it should be, for all of us. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Rainlake 30 Oct 94 11:19:46 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Thanks for the recipe, and no worries...I never accept anything *anyone* sez as 'gospel,' medical practitioner or not. ;> I'll let you know how it 'works for me' after I give it a go. :> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 30 Oct 94 14:29:52 Subject: Re: CHAOS 1/ UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Hiya Josh...hope you're not upset about my having evoked you without asking first. ;> > As a practical matter, I've invoked Bugs Bunny with success equal to > that I get with most respectable gods of any pantheon. Next to that, > Tolkein's characters hardly seem an extreme variation from traditional > forms. But Bugs is so much *kewler* than Tolkien's characters! ;> I seem to recall your mentioning at one point seeing Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd as Set and Horus--have I got it right? The 'basic archetypes' are all in place, really with the exception of the Enochian entities, and this is interesting to me because, as you point out, the 'nokie system is widely purported to be the or one of the most potent around. Not only have their been no cults of religious worship associated with the system, but the Enochian critters don't seem to *me* to 'fit' with any known 'archetype' from any pantheon I can think of. The quality of the manifestation has to be considered too, though. IMHO, Mae West 'did' BABALON about a zillion times better than Madonna could ever hope to. I'd take Bugs over Bombadil as well. Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: KEEPER Area: MagickNet To: LORD WART 29 Oct 94 12:58:00 Subject: dropping Techno-pagan UpdReq This message was originally addressed to ALL and a carbon copy was sent to you. ---------------------------------------- Well folks some decisions had to be made as Morgan and I are not finding the time we need to get on all the boards that we have been in the past. As such we are both dropping Techno-pagan. We would like to ask that if you folks need to get a hold of us please leave a message on Banter Decanter (791-9836). We would also appreciate it if Clan and Hearth announcements could be placed on there as well since we haven't been getting schedules. They could be posted in area 12 or 30 or they could be sent to one of us in private in area 2. The reason we are dropping Techno instead of one of our other boards is that we do not like the bbs software (no offense Jedi) and there was not much holding our attention here. With all our love. May the Gods smile on you in everything you do! VES HEILL Keeper cc: ALL ALL ALL DAGONET 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718