From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 19 Oct 94 21:52:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Such experimentation is quite common among those who claim the title of > Chaos Magician. I truly doubt that you can say the same for a particular > Pagan group. Wiccans, for example, tend to always work in > theLady-and-Lady- > call-down-the-moon-salute-the-quarters-circle-circle-shining-bright-so- > mote- > it-be paradigm, regardless of the minor "spontaneous" idiosyncracies they > might work into a particular rite. Same goes for say, Nordic pagans - > altar in the North, hammer salute to the quarters, "Hail Odin" and all > that stuff. > This is not to disparge any of these traditions - I have participated in > rites using these paradigms with all due respect. But I am free to follow > any other paradigm I choose whenever I choose for whatever reason I > choose. RD> LOL...Ok, I see yer point. Still, one of the things that irks me about RD> several generic neo-Pagans I've encountered has been the "All Gods are RD> one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess; therefore I can invoke Herne RD> and Kali, or Isis and Odin, or Ishtar and Ganesha..." without knowing RD> a damned thang about the mythology associated with any of the above. Well, that irks me too! When my partner and I did our Egyptian Rite at Equinox, we researched the proper attire, arranged an altar with the Stele of Revealing on it, along with a pyramid and lotus flowers, used milk and honey for the lustration, even drew our own blood with consecrated dagger for the sacrifice. We studied up on Egyptian Magic (mostly Burge's work, rather than rely on GD or other more modern interpretations) and spoke the incantations in Egyptian! Osiris and Isis are NOT the same "currents" as _any_ other entities _except_ Osiris and Isis. But then doing an invocation of Innana puts me into a totally different state of mind. As it should. If you're going to tap the current of an ancient ritual, you must be in a state of mind similar to those who originated the ritual or it will come to very little, except mental masturbation. RD> OTOH, I agree with Josh Norton's assessment that one can achieve RD> enlightenment by meditating on Deputy Dawg cartoons, so maybe the RD> Tom-Bombadil-and-Durga-Circles are achieving something for those RD> involved. I suppose so, if one thinks that Tom Bombadil has the same amount of etheric energy available from the past manifestations of it by worshipful followers as say, Pan (in his satyr form). Even though the connection between Pan and Bombadil is intellectually correct, there's more than intellectual symbolism at work in magick. Do you think the emotional "energy" whomped up by all the Tolkien fans there ever were equals the amount raised by followers of Pan throughout ancient history, in quality _or_ quantity? *I* don't... I think such people are deluding themselves into taking the lazy way out myself. RD> I also feel free to work within any paradigm I choose--but I RD> *hope* I wouldn't jump on in without some basic familiarity with said RD> paradigm. Well, jumping in can be useful for learning purposes, as long as one doesn't have high expectations at first and plans to become more immersed in the "tradition" as time goes on. I at least try to study the background intellectually before undertaking a ritual form I've never used before. RD> I stick mostly with 'Thelemic-Egyptian' and Hindu cosmology, RD> even when designing personal rituals, simply because those are the RD> ones I like best . I use Celtic forms a lot because I have a bit of a Wiccan background, and the Hermetic-Thelemic because I have used them before and there is a lot of support material available. I find Egyptian fascinating, though I'm hardly and expert, and it has had very impressive results in my Work. So I tend to gravitate toward these forms out of familiarity, as you do with yours. I guess I tend to shy away from the Eastern forms due to personal quirk; one of my "buttons" is that Westerners have a very ancient and beautiful mystical tradition - it's called _Magick_. So many people turn to Eastern mysticism because they think there is something inherently superior in it. (I'm not saying this is _your_ motivation, at least not now.) This irks me. It's a denial of our own Western mystical heritage, that organised Christianity almost exterminated, and managed to connect with "evil". > You see, I believe wholeheartedly in the existence of superphysical > entities, variously described as spirits, gods, elementals, etc. What I > do _not_ hold to is that because of their spiritual nature they are > "superior" to human beings, or have any business dictating the norms of > thought or behavior to human beings. Since they are _not_ humans, where > do they get off telling humans how to live? It's a stupid as a celebate > clergy dispensing sexual advice... RD> I'm still not sure what I believe...at one point, I had a confirmed RD> theistic POV...later switched over to an atheistic POV...right now, a RD> lot of my beliefs are in a pretty wild state of flux, so my basic RD> answer to almost everything important is: Homey Don't Know. RD> Hmmm...does your personal cosmology leave out anything similar to the RD> 'god-man' concept? No Jesus/Osiris/Krsna types? Or would that make any RD> difference I wonder... I had my Gnostic Christain roommate bring this up regarding the Christ as the Son of God _and_ Man idea. I would feel better about it if any of these god/men lived more typical lives as human beings. Drawing general conclusions about what it's like to be human based on the life experiences of Jesus or Krisna seems to be open to possible errors of interpretation, IMHO. RD> it's struck me sometimes, in idle moments have a lot of em, as you no doubt noticed!> that Siddhartha Gautama RD> would be amazed by the practices of a lot of modern Buddhists. The RD> entire point of his system was that he broke free from his orthodox RD> Hindu roots and found his own way. Especially the form it's taken in Tibet! RD> I don't think he intended to found RD> a new religion, just as I don't think Jesus was a Christian! They never do... RD> Also reminiscent of something I'd heard when people talk about RD> contacting the spirits of the departed: Just cuz they're dead don't RD> mean they're smart. Hear, hear...! > But rather than assume a chauvanistic attitude of "superiority", I > feel the proper attitude is to approach dealing with spiritual entities > as _equals_; different in nature perhaps, but not "higher" powers. RD> I dunno. I'd suspect that, just as there are humans with differing RD> levels of wisdom and understanding, spiritual entities would follow RD> the same basic course. I definitely *do* acknowledge the existence of RD> 'something' that is a 'Higher Power' than Rose Dawn Scott, but whether RD> it's a distinct, real, discarnate entity or part of my deeper Self, I RD> dunno. Neither do I, so I try to adopt an state of belief in which it does not matter. > There is a difference between group discretion and grade secrecy used as a > tool to ensure that the followers toe the line. In the group I work with, > the AutonomatriX, a potential guildmember undergoes a period of assessment > by the current members of whatever Working Group or Temple they wish to be > affiliated with (usually a few months). This is mostly to ascertain RD> Sounds sensible. Sounds a lot like the O.T.O.'s Minerval degree, in RD> fact. Yes, or the Temple of Set's First Degree. (Setian I*) > vote of the current members.Then the candidate composes their own > initiation ceremony which is administered by the other members of the > group - although the group works an "element of surprise" into the > initiation. Thus, no two initiations are ever the same (which is proper > - no two _people_ are ever the same), and coming up with a suitable > "surprise" is itself a test of the creativity of the group! In this > manner, the need for hoarding "secret initiation rituals" is eliminated, > but the effectiveness of the element of "surprise" in an initiation is > retained. RD> This *does* sounds like a fascinating idea! Still, I think it's RD> possible for scripted initiation rituals to tap into something so deep RD> as to be virtually universal. I'm not saying that's not possible. I suppose by "scripted" you mean a ritual form that is always administered the same way. A:.X initiations are "scripted" - the initate wrote the original script! (With the affiliated Temple members variously acting as the producers, directors and actors, and given to putting their own twists into the plot !) Presumably the ideas behind tapping into those universal currents are what the candidate has been studying and working on, with us most importantly by participating in ritual work with the group. And the group, in getting to know the candidate, comes to understand what will be most effective and beneficial in planning their "element of the unexpected" into the candidate's rite. There are no "observers" at a Temple meeting, no neophytes merely _watching_ the "masters" perform ritual work. You learn ceremonial magick by performing ceremony, like you learn to swim by getting in the water! No one is excluded from Temple rituals, not candidates or even first time visitors. There are no "inner circle" rites, because there is no inner circle! There are certain rites where visitors from the general public are not invited, usually due to it being a highly personal or volatile or shocking kind of rite. But no one in Templespace can just _watch_, they must participate, however passively or haltingly, in the rites. "Com'on in! The water's fine...!" Oh, and a Temple member can excuse themselves from participation in any rite that is proposed, without any explanation neccesary, and without repercussions. But they must leave Templespace while the rest of the group is performing it. But as far as self-designed initiations go, if you can't understand the techniques and underlying forms of ritual work enough to be able to consciously sculpt them into an effective ritual, or don't understand your own psychological "levers" enough to know how to bring about emotional impact in yourself, you probably shouldn't be practicing magick anyway. At least you're not ready for initiation until you _can_. RD> Ideally, this would be the idea, I RD> think. I was surprised--amazed might be more accurate--by how strongly RD> I *was* affected by the actual ceremony during my O.T.O. initiations RD> into Minerval and First. I'm sorry to be so vague--it has nothing to RD> do with oathbound material or a sense of secrecy-- this is one of RD> those cases that just can't be adequately conveyed, and I'm still not RD> completely sure about all the dynamics, just that the effects were RD> present, real, and most potent. I think the sponteneity is still very RD> much present with a scripted ritual as well--that comes from the RD> candidate him/herself, and his/her reactions to various parts of the RD> ritual. It wouldn't be much of an initiation if it didn't provide the proverbial boot-to-the-head! You're not being vague, and I understand exactly what you mean. It's like trying to describe sex to a virgin... RD> And, less important to me, but still a consideration, the fact RD> that each of us *has* undergone the same ritual, and the discussions RD> among initiates of how the ritual itself impacted them, how they RD> reacted and felt at different stages, and the types of things we each RD> went through following initiation, do build a real bond and sense of RD> fraternity and 'group intimacy.' I can see this point, and only say that I feel the same kind of camaradiry among others who have initiated in the way I have, and we can discuss what underlying facts contribute to the effectiveness of the initiation by finding commonalities behind the outer forms. And by having NON-initiates able to participate in these discussions in preperation for their _own_ initiations, a lot of teaching and learning gets done - in _both_ directions! In the OTO style, exclusionism is the price of the group intimacy shared by the "inner" members, who cannot discuss their initiations with anyone who hasn't undergone it without breaking oaths. This is one of those little weak spots where "indoctrination" and metaphysical entropy can set in; there is only one-way feedback - from other people who are with you up the ladder of hierarchy or above you. This can effectively stifle healthy re-examination and subsequent evolution of thought through a lack of "independent" observation by those outside the loop. One thing I'll hand to Pete Carroll in his original structure for the Pact of the IOT was the idea of the Office of the Insubordinate. Each Pact Temple Master was to be assigned, from the 4th degree (neophyte) circle, an official Insubordinate. Hir job is to be the "court jester": to question the descisions of the MT, to make fun of them when they fuck up, to ask questions about anything that the MT is unclearly teaching, and to be the advocate and ombudsman for the neophyte ranks. This was an attempt at putting "checks and balances" into the idea of a magickal lodge. It works, with varying degrees of success I'm told, but what a GREAT idea! > At the completion of the rite, the new guildmember is given a > complete copy > of The Corpus Fecundi ("Body of Work") consisting of all spells, formulas, > incantations, research records, past initiations, ritual transcripts, etc. > that have ever been used by the A:.X Temples and WG's, plus a contact > listing of all current members (usually by "magickal" name to insure > descretion by individuals who desire it). IOW, once you're in, you're > _in_, and you have access to _all_ of the collective knowledge of the > A:.X to use as you see fit. It is a confedration of _equals_. RD> Hmmm. It sounds egalitarian, and un-problematic...actually, I'm not RD> sure how I feel about this. Does it seem to work well this way in RD> practice? Pretty well, actually. It seems that there is a self-limiting factor at work in the impartaiton of magickal knowledge. You absorb what you are ready to understand, and the rest makes the eyes glaze over. People who have visited Templespace who we thought weren't right for us, simply never came back and had no desire on their part to return anyway. Those who work out we seem to _know_ in advance that they will, and they're the ones who _want_ to come back! People tend to follow their own instincts as to what's ready to be digested, and a spontanious approach is generally encouraged by the group. A lot of it is learning to live in the "magickal moment" and recognise when the universe is dropping a big hint on you. If a book falls off the Temple's bookcase at your feet, you'd best pick it up and figure out WHY the universe decided to drop it there. It has been wisely said, "If you build it, they will come!" If you build your personal inner magickal temple, then the knowledge _will_ come to fill it up. You can bet on it...! ... Beware the One True Way. That path leads only to the One True Mistake. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: KAI MACTANE 19 Oct 94 21:52:00 Subject: Re: AUTONOMATRIX INITIATI UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Joseph Max <=- -=> Yglr'th Joseph Max zrlq Rose Dawn z'qwan "Re: chaos"? -=> F'dzeh nyq'rhg: JM> There is a difference between group discretion and grade secrecy used JM> as a tool to ensure that the followers toe the line. In the group I JM> work with, the AutonomatriX, a potential guildmember undergoes a period KM> [snip] JM> the candidate composes their own initiation ceremony which is JM> administered by the other members of the group - although the group JM> works an "element of surprise" into the initiation. Thus, no two JM> initiations are ever the same (which is proper - no two _people_ are JM> ever the same), and coming up with a suitable "surprise" is itself a JM> test of the creativity of the group! In this manner, the need for JM> hoarding "secret initiation rituals" is eliminated, but the JM> effectiveness of the element of "surprise" in an initiation is JM> retained. KM> Ooooooohh, I *like* this!!! KM> Had that element of surprise not been incorporated, I would have KM> thought it a very silly thing, but this allows the initiate to work in KM> stimuli that s/he knows will have a particular effect of hirself... KM> potentially *very* powerful! And I must admit, I truly love the KM> egalitarianism of making sure the _group_ is worthy of the _initiate!_ KM> The Golden Dawn would never have conceived of this. :) Yeah, the A:.X is like the French Revolution of the Occult... ... Get thee behind me Satan...and PUSH! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 19 Oct 94 21:52:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> NEwayz, I kind of look at the O.T.O.'s Degree structure, not as a way RD> of manipulating initiates, or a carrot-and-stick method, but more an RD> attempt to approximate the general 'time-frame' that the individual RD> progression toward wisdom and understanding would take. Well, I have a minor problem with that idea, in that it is impossible to estimate such things, IMHO. Take _me_, for example (please!). All modesty aside, I think I've done quite a bit of magickal development over the past several years, but to join the OTO at this point would require "falling in" to the Order's way of interpretation, as well as "starting at the bottom" in rank and going through the same system that a total beginner has to. I realise that the point is to "level the playing field" so to speak, so that no one feels like others are getting "special privliges", but the process would annoy me to no end, so I guess I'll never get around to joining an OTO lodge. In a martial arts dojo, if I thought I deserved a higher rank than white belt when I joined, I would be invited to prove myself in competition with the others. I would be given a rank commesurate with who I managed to defeat and how high I could take it. I think perhaps even a magickal lodge could come up with a way to measure "previous experience" and allow a new member to be tested and then awarded a rank as indicated by the results of the test. But that may result in resentment by those who have worked their way from the bottom, etc, etc, etc... This is why I like the A:.X's system so much - it bypasses all that stuff by eliminating "ranks". Respect and "position" in the Guild is based solely on demonstratable ability and the respect of the fellow guild members. RD> Obviously, RD> some initiates possess more gnosis than their degree in the Outer RD> Order would indicate; others may whiz right through the initiation RD> rituals without having attained quite as much. Which is the basic problem I have with the "rank system". It's too easy to attain rank by brown-nosing the right people; when in reality, as you point out, it is really not a dependable measure of actual ability RD> I also believe that if RD> the individuals around any person recognize qualities that indicate RD> that person is 'ready for more,' it's not so completely structured RD> that assistance would be categorically denied based simply on one's RD> degree... This is not true, Rose. I have a friend who is a 3rd degree member of the OTO lodge in Berkeley. He went through a series of workings on his own and in the process was confronted by a spiritual entity that identified itself as "Babylon". He asked for it to give him signs to "prove" it's identity, and such signs were given, but he was not able to interpret them. So he went to the higher-ups at his lodge and explained what he had done and asked for their help in interpretation. Their only reply: "It's beyond your grade." He even put it to them like this: don't reveal anything to me, just tell me if the signs I was given make any sense! Again: "It's beyond your grade." He almost quit right there, but now is concentrating on starting his own camp. The first time _I_ got an answer like that, I'd have pissed on their shoes! Obviously, if the entity saw fit to reveal certain things to him, he was READY, regardless of his grade! This underscores the main problem with grade structures - what gives one fallible group of humans the right to judge another human's readiness for knowledge, and where do they get off denying such knowledge (which was obviously ready to be recieved) to a lodge brother! I told him to always interpret "It's beyond your grade" as "I don't know"... RD> ... and that, conversely, if an individual doesn't seem to have RD> 'grokked' something yet, it would be possible for others in the group RD> to gently suggest they might not be in such a hurry to move on. Again, who are they to judge? Perhaps the person _must_ confront unknown forces in order to grow. If it is their will to take the chance, give them enough rope, I always say. Either they'll hang or they'll swing... RD> There have been times when I'd have welcomed a more 'chaotic' RD> approach, such as you've described, with everything available to me RD> all at once, sure. In practice, I'd probably have been confused and RD> overwhelmed at being presented with a huge body of work to pick and RD> choose and study from. OTOH, maybe not. It's tempting to say the RD> choice should be available to each individual, but I'm going to stop RD> short of saying that. How much of your hesitation is due to the fact that it's not done that way in the group you belong to? RD> There's so much that I don't understand yet, RD> that I'm starting to wonder if I have definite opinions about anything RD> at this point! ;> Most importantly, while I still sometimes think RD> I'd like to be moving faster within the Order, I have *never* felt RD> that degree restrictions or privacy requests have been manipulative of RD> me as a person, or imposed for any shady reasons. I love the Order RD> with all my heart! And you should, or you shouldn't be there! RD> Also, until approximately a year ago, I had a fairly traditional RD> 'guru/chela' relationship with an individual in another tradition I RD> had been exploring/practicing. He took the same gradual approach with RD> me, revealing and withholding and explaining as he judged my spiritual RD> condition to merit. The relationship never degenerated into blind RD> obedience on my part, or advantage-taking on his part. I think it was RD> ideal, and I think that, the O.T.O. being larger than one guru, and RD> its initiates being more numerous than one chela, the degree system is RD> the best approximation possible of that very intimate one-on-one RD> relationship. You were very lucky to have had such a relationship these days when such relationships are abused on a regular basis... RD> More mundanely, as a former underground hatha yoga RD> instructor, now studying for certification, I would not suggest that a RD> brand-new student who had been living a sedentary lifestyle, dive RD> right into Sirshasana before mastering Sukhasana. But you must admit there is a limiting factor at work. A rank beginner usually _can't_ assume a full lotus or plough position _anyway_ without practice and working up to it. RD> Nor would I throw a RD> bunch of information about the effects of asanas on the RD> parasympathetic nervous system at someone who just wanted their neck RD> to stop hurting. Know what I mean, jellybean? ;> Sure. But I can go get a book from the library that details _all_ of that information. It isn't _secret knowledge _. The book will contain many warnings about proper conditioning and working up slowly, as is proper, but if I'm fool enough to ignore them, well.... RD> You've expressed the opinion that if there is any chance at all of RD> abuse, why hold onto that tradition--I think one could as easily, and RD> accurately, say that if there's any chance at all of benefit, why do RD> away with it? Only if the benefits outweigh the potential for abuse, and there is _no other way_ to derive the benefits. As I've pointed out, the A:.X manages to retain a lot of the benefits without the abuse potential. > My point exactly. So anything else is highly suspect! Secret orders > allow for hidden agendas... RD> Anything that exists allows for the possibility of hidden agendas RD> though. People have children out of emotional insecurity and RD> neediness, to get a larger AFDC payment, to try to save failing RD> relationships, because it's the 'thing to do', even explicitly in RD> order to have their own personal victims to abuse sexually. The RD> 'Family Unit' is the world's oldest 'Secret Order' in many ways. It RD> doesn't equate to me to say that childbearing should be abolished to RD> protect against all the potential abuses. The human race wouldn't last RD> very long if it did! Point taken - and it's not as if a Guild like the A:.X doesn't allow for other types of problems to arise. As in most groups, dynamics always develop between individuals where they fall into "leader" and "follower" roles, however inadvertently. A system without a set structure will tend to evolve it's own dynamic of relationships within the group, so it is rather like anarchy instead of hierarchy! The fact that these are often hidden agendas in and of themselves, and the dynamic does operate in a "unseen" fashion I won't deny. I won't bother to lay out the problems inherent in anarchic systems, as they are well known and the Guild has had it's share. Suffice it to say that for myself, my nature rebels too easily against "authority figures" that have the authority bestowed on them by "the system". For individual merit earned by individual effort I have infinite respect. I respect _results_, and _demonstratable knowledge_. What happened to my OTO friend could not happen in the A:.X.. No one can hide their ignorance behind "it's beyond your grade"-isms. It's either _demonstrate_ your knowledge, or _admit_ that you don't possess it! For my friend, "we don't know" would have been a far more satisfying _and useful_ answer than "it's beyond your grade". ... Bless@#$&%@*/&!..No Eris, not yet..^%$#&....ed Be... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 26 Oct 94 22:22:00 Subject: AUTONOMATRIX INITIATI UpdReq > Yeah, the A:.X is like the French Revolution of the Occult... Why don't we check in 20 years. Perhaps it will still be around. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 26 Oct 94 22:24:00 Subject: CHAOS, REPLY PART II UpdReq > In a martial arts dojo, if I thought I deserved a higher rank than white > belt when I joined, I would be invited to prove myself in competition > with the others. I would be given a rank commesurate with who I managed > to defeat and how high I could take it. I don't know where you're getting this but this has NOT been an accepted practice in any dojo I have ever trained in or had friends in (and many many of my friends practice martial arts). Every dojo we have encountered requires even an advanced practitioner to go through the majority of the tests, especially the shodan tests (which take most of a day) or equivilant before they are accepted as anything other than a "guest." I know for a fact my Sensei and the other senseis in my school would laugh at anyone who came in and challenged them for rank. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson Internet:mimir@io.com 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Frank Mertus 26 Oct 94 07:44:30 Subject: Re: RPSTOVAL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Enough messages with info about RPStoval Oasis have passed back and forth that I'd assume that by now the gentleman who was looking for local O.T.O. bodies has probably seen the address, or at least the name...no idea why he asked me, in particular, for the info. ;> Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Andy Bender Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 24 Oct 94 12:05:04 Subject: Autonomatrix Initiations UpdReq KM> And I must admit, I truly love the egalitarianism of KM> making sure the _group_ is worthy of the _initiate!_ The KM> Golden Dawn would never have conceived of this. :) No group, whether it be a Golden Dawn spin-off or a band of chaotes, need conceive of this idea. One would imagine that this is inherent in anything that the individual magician does. If the individual does not already know that he shouldn't join a group that he doesn't find worthy of him, he's already off to a bad start. --- X RM 1.3 01655 X Black holes are places where God divided by zero... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Frank Mertus Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 27 Oct 94 00:25:50 Subject: Re: RPSTOVAL UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD>I did know about RPSTOVAL, but don't have the address...and I was RD>pulling em right out of the _Link_, so I gave the dude all the info at RD>hand.Maybe you should tell him stead of me? I think his name was Lazaris RD>or something like that. I will try. Love is the law, love under will. --- ~ OLX 2.1 ~ Hey mister, the back of your neck is glowing red. -- DLG Mailroom:QWK v1.0 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 26 Oct 94 15:36:00 Subject: Chaos 1/ UpdReq Thus said Joseph Max to Rose Dawn concerning Chaos: Hi Joseph! Hope you don't mind if I butt in... -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> OTOH, I agree with Josh Norton's assessment that one can achieve RD> enlightenment by meditating on Deputy Dawg cartoons, so maybe the RD> Tom-Bombadil-and-Durga-Circles are achieving something for those RD> involved. (As an aside, the remark Rose refers to was in a different context than the current discussion. I was talking about the way a Buddha or a Master of the Temple perceives the relationship between the Tao and the individual self-in-the-world.) JM> I suppose so, if one thinks that Tom Bombadil has the same amount of etheric JM> energy available from the past manifestations of it by worshipful followers JM> as say, Pan (in his satyr form). Even though the connection between Pan and JM> Bombadil is intellectually correct, there's more than intellectual symbolism JM> at work in magick. Do you think the emotional "energy" whomped up by all the JM> Tolkien fans there ever were equals the amount raised by followers of Pan JM> throughout ancient history, in quality _or_ quantity? *I* don't... JM> I think such people are deluding themselves into taking the lazy way out JM> myself. We had a rather heated discussion of the value of Tolkein workings earlier this year. Lots of flames by people offended with the idea that other folks could get as much out of invoking fantasy characters as they got out of their "real" (i.e., "historically established") gods. In particular, certain Asatruars were almost frothing at the mouth. Much fun was had by all. (Needless to say, I sided with the Tolkeinists.) I really don't see that the power associated with a god-form -- or any other symbol, for that matter -- has much at all to do with the amount of worship it has had. Consider a few examples: -- Inanna hasn't had more than a handful of worshipers at any time in the last three thousand years; for most of that time she hasn't had any at all. Yet, as you pointed out somewhere in your message, invoking her still produces a good result. Same for other Babylonian/Sumerian gods. Given that the total world population circa 1000 B.C. was only about 100 million, it would seem likely that the gods of that time never had terribly many worshipers by modern standards. And if results today are dependent upon energy generated back then, then why hasn't that energy leaked off in the intervening millenia of disuse? -- Contrarywise, given the population and membership figures, Christianity and Islam have had more emotional energy generated around their symbols than all of the religions of prior eras combined. It probably exceeds them by one or two orders of magnitude, at the very least. One would think that a magician using Christian symbolism could generate that much more power for an equal amount of work; and if so, it is surprising that we don't find the world strewn with the charred bodies of magicians and priests who got zapped with it. But that is not the case; an experienced magician produces roughly the same amount of power from a working regardless of the god(s) he is invoking. -- Consider that the Enochian invocations, arguably the most effective and powerful in existence, have never had _any_ worshipers at all. And over their entire existence have never been in frequent, long-term use by more than a few hundred people. Without worshipers, where is all this energy coming from? In my view, the real determinant of the effectiveness of a working isn't in the historical amount of worship or emotion connected with the symbols. It is in how well that symbol connects the magician's conscious self with the unconscious parts of his being that do the real work of magick. I use a relatively standardized symbol-set for communication, but I don't reject the use of specialized symbols if they speak to the person using them. If Tom Bombadil makes that connection for someone, then it is going to work for them as well as any more "respectable" god- form. At some level, that fictional character is going to link in to more universal forces, just like the respectable ones. And once that's done, there's not a damn bit of difference between them as far as the effectiveness of invocations goes. (Of course, understanding the results, or connecting them into a larger framework is another matter. But the same problem applies to many traditional gods.) As a practical matter, I've invoked Bugs Bunny with success equal to that I get with most respectable gods of any pantheon. Next to that, Tolkein's characters hardly seem an extreme variation from traditional forms. [ Continued In Next Message... ] ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 26 Oct 94 15:36:02 Subject: Chaos 2/ UpdReq [ ...Continued From Previous Message ] ___ X SPEED 1.30 [NR] X 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718