From: Rose Dawn Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 13 Oct 94 09:14:10 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Howdy Josh! > I do recall a time when there was a rather large -- not to mention noisy > -- Crowley-can-do-no-wrong faction on the East Coast and in the Midwest. > But in perspective it seems to me that their "fundamentalism" was partly > a matter of lack of things to compare him to, partly from a sense of > social isolation, and partly a reaction to the syrupy goo of 60s and 70s > Newageism. Heh--remember, I'm a Rosie-come-lately and a Holy-Coaster to boot. ;> What you've said makes a lot of sense to me. I most *definitely* disagree with Crowley-the-flawed-human-being on several points, but when confronted by the Eeeeeek!-reactions of White Lite Nazis who are obviously not only ignorant of anything he actually said or wrote, but unwilling to bother to dispell said ignorance, my natural reaction is to 'circle the wagons and shoot back.' When in more intelligent company , I've got no trouble at all making distinctions between AC-as-Prophet and AC-as-sexist/bigoted-pompous-ass . ;> Although I'm also revising some of those opinions too...not that his personal prejudices and failings aren't glaringly obvious at times, but some of what I initially perceived to fall into the 'Bullshit!' category is now being upgraded to the 'Hmmmm...maybe he meant {whatever}' category. It's absolutely amazing what second and third takes will sometimes do to ya! ;> > Expanding communication has reduced the impact of the first two of > these; things are definitely more laid back now than then. The third, I > don't think we'll ever get rid of; it's a normal phase of the self- > definition process to react against the "we're all one" mentality. Sounds logical to me! How've you been, BTW? Still crazy-busy, or just plain busy now? ;> > ... Is this real, or some strange and twisted dream? Yes. }:D Love is the law, love under will. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 12 Oct 94 09:54:00 Subject: RE: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- JM> Those who see themselves as Magicians first, and Pagans rather more by JM> default than by strong identification with a particular Pagan tradition, JM> have a less pedantic attitude about freedom of magickal expression. RD> This is interesting, especially because I've heard self-identified RD> Pagans use an inverse argument to criticize ceremonial RD> magicians--that, rather than spontaneous, free-flowing rituals, RD> ceremonialists get bogged down with all the i-dotting and t-crossing, RD> while Pagans keep the spontaneity. To clarify, I didn't only mean "spontaneity" when I said "freedom of magickal expression". In my work with the Chaos Magick paradigm, I have led or participated in ritual workings drawn from a plethora of sources: Thelemic, Egyptian, Voudoun, Golden Dawn, Aurum Solis, Arabic, Satanic, Chinese, Helleninc, Wiccan, Native American, Babylonian, Assyrian, Necronomicon, Nordic, Abra-Melin, Celtic, Shinto, Innuit AND an equal number of original rites composed by myself or my associates. Such experimentation is quite common among those who claim the title of Chaos Magician. I truly doubt that you can say the same for a particular Pagan group. Wiccans, for example, tend to always work in the Lady-and-Lady- call-down-the-moon-salute-the-quarters-circle-circle-shining-bright-so-mote- it-be paradigm, regardless of the minor "spontaneous" idiosyncracies they might work into a particular rite. Same goes for say, Nordic pagans - altar in the North, hammer salute to the quarters, "Hail Odin" and all that stuff. This is not to disparge any of these traditions - I have participated in rites using these paradigms with all due respect. But I am free to follow any other paradigm I choose whenever I choose for whatever reason I choose. That is what I mean by freedom of magickal expression. RD> To an *extent* I even think it's RD> true...as I've said, I have been lucky not to run into much dogmatism RD> in the local Thelemic/CM community, but there's much more of an air of RD> 'spur-of-the-moment' around my personal workings that could be RD> classified as 'low magick.' No 'value judgment' inherent in the term! For that matter, I don't see many Thelemites doing rewrites of the Gnostic Mass to reflect their personal expressions! RD> Possibly this has something to do with the magick-vs.-religion thread RD> that's been going on concurrently: while I haven't noticed a whole lot RD> of rigidity specific to ritual 'ceremonialists' I don't think> I *have* noticed that an incredible RD> number of people seem to assume that everyone in the magical community RD> adheres to the Wiccan Rede, for instance--or that there is "a god" and RD> "a goddess" who always do things the same way. That's one of *my* RD> personal buttons! ;> That's what I was referring to above. Such things are a result of the demon of DOGMA. Whenever that most hideous of demons raises it's ugly head, it should be decapitated instantly without mercy, for it is invariably followed by the smell of burning infidel flesh... RD> Julia Phillips about C.M. and religion--did you know that my pal Noah RD> Webster defines 'religion' as 'any specific system of belief, worship, RD> conduct, etc., involving a code of ethics and a philosophy' and 'any RD> object of conscientious regard and pursuit'? With those broader def's RD> in mind, I could see C.M. as 'religion'!> The definition of "religion" is slippery at best, so I tend to be a bit conservative in what I use the term to denote. Otherwise, it defines nothing but "whatever one's attitude toward metaphysics happens to be". When I use the term "religion" I am referring to an organised method of expressing fealty and obeisanse to higher spiritual power(s). You see, I believe wholeheartedly in the existence of superphysical entities, variously described as spirits, gods, elementals, etc. What I do _not_ hold to is that because of their spiritual nature they are "superior" to human beings, or have any business dictating the norms of thought or behavior to human beings. Since they are _not_ humans, where do they get off telling humans how to live? It's a stupid as a celebate clergy dispensing sexual advice... In fact, since I also hold that humans have _both_ a physical _and_ a spiritual nature, whereas these other entities have _only_ a spiritual nature, a case can be made for _humans_ as being the "superior life-form". But rather than assume a chauvanistic attitude of "superiority", I feel the proper attitude is to approach dealing with spiritual entities as _equals_; different in nature perhaps, but not "higher" powers. RD> Hmmm. It seems as though you're saying that oaths of confidentiality RD> are necessarily a means of exploitation. I disagree. I'm thinking RD> about the types of things that actually *are* confidential. From what RD> I've seen/read/experienced so far, I firmly believe that AC was RD> telling the flat truth when he said that all the *real* Mysteries had RD> been published and discussed openly. Any anyone with sufficient RD> intelligence and personal inclination can discover those 'Mysteries' RD> themselves. As for the initiation rituals, I'm glad I didn't know RD> 'what to expect' before going through them myself; it heightened the RD> effects for me tremendously. As to the 'other secret stuff' I admit RD> that the major reason I keep that confidential, is simply because I RD> promised to do so. I don't like people who break their word, and I RD> don't want to become one. I don't feel in any way 'exploited' by such RD> confidentiality though, and I certainly don't feel that I'm exploiting RD> anyone else by not blabbing everything. There is a difference between group discretion and grade secrecy used as a tool to ensure that the followers toe the line. In the group I work with, the AutonomatriX, a potential guildmember undergoes a period of assessment by the current members of whatever Working Group or Temple they wish to be affiliated with (usually a few months). This is mostly to ascertain whether or not the current members feel comfortable with the candidate _and_ the candidate feels comfortable with the group enough to perform effective group workings with each other. Membership is offered based on a simple majority vote of the current members. Then the candidate composes their own initiation ceremony which is administered by the other members of the group - although the group works an "element of surprise" into the initiation. Thus, no two initiations are ever the same (which is proper - no two _people_ are ever the same), and coming up with a suitable "surprise" is itself a test of the creativity of the group! In this manner, the need for hoarding "secret initiation rituals" is eliminated, but the effectiveness of the element of "surprise" in an initiation is retained. At the completion of the rite, the new guildmember is given a complete copy of The Corpus Fecundi ("Body of Work") consisting of all spells, formulas, incantations, research records, past initiations, ritual transcripts, etc. that have ever been used by the A:.X Temples and WG's, plus a contact listing of all current members (usually by "magickal" name to insure descretion by individuals who desire it). IOW, once you're in, you're _in_, and you have access to _all_ of the collective knowledge of the A:.X to use as you see fit. It is a confedration of _equals_. Sure, there are administrative "offices" (like the Curator of the Corpus Fecundi, and Main Contact Point - a "Guild spokesperson") but these are democratically elected positions, or drawn by lot from a pool of interested members, and are rotated on a regular basis. Members take turns being the Temple Master at meetings and leading the group ritual workings. Members are encouraged to work on independent experimental projects and report their results for inclusion in the Corpus. Members can even form Working Groups with non-A:.X associates. Rule of thumb: JUST DO IT! In true Thelemic style, there are only three "grades" in the A:.X : Member ("Hermit"), Candidate ("Lover") and NON-member ("Man of Earth - ie. everybody else in the world!) In this manner, the abuses of "Inner Orders" are eliminated - by eliminating the Inner Orders! The only secrecy involved is that the new guildmember agrees not to disclose the contents of the Contacts Listing, simply as a matter of personal discretion. Anything else in the Corpus is available to the general public for the asking. You'll see a lot of it posted on the Internet's alt.magick.chaos network quite frequently. A:X members frequently share stories of their initiations with candidates and newer members in the manner of old soldiers swapping war stories! And it also gives candidates ideas to work with in devising their own initation. RD> But, while experimentation RD> may be the key to magical development, it helps to have some basis for RD> that experimentation! If nothing else, it saves the individual *so* RD> much time. If one doesn't learn any traditions at all, s/he won't have RD> any idea which ones have been discovered to 'work' withstanding the RD> test of time and culture, and which ones, while they may have been RD> suited to people in 'other places, other times,' need to be updated to RD> become individually relevant. Without Crowley's *huge* body of work, RD> which in turn was based on Levi...Agrippa...all those anonymous dudes RD> from way back when...where would Spare, Carroll, Aquino, and everyone RD> else be? At the very *least* they'd have all had a much more difficult RD> time, and we'd have no basis for comparison. I'm not saying _all_ magickal orders use grade secrecy to exploit their members - _but they can_. I think the A:.X's system shows that the useful elements can be retained (like initiatory "surprise" and personal discretion) while the possibility of abuses by upper echalons can be eliminated. If the system serves no purpose that cannot be obtained in another way, why retain it when it contains even the _possibilty_ of abuse? Remember, peer presure and the impetus to conform can be insidous and subtle - that's what makes it so effective! Anytime there is an "inner order" that holds back information, there is an automatic superior/inferior dichotomy established having nothing to do with ability or _real_ knowledge, that may be (and all too often is) based on nothing more than the fact that some "inner" members simply kissed the right asses. RD> I think that most of the Important Work is done RD> individually. Joining an Order, to me, is a way of asserting that I RD> agree with a certain basic philosophy and 'flavor' of magical working, RD> and of comparing experiences with others who also agree therewith, RD> rather than approaching it as a 'blank slate' that was going to be RD> inscribed by the initiators or something like that. The very same reasons _I_ have for working within an "order" - in my case it's a Guild - a confedration of peers. I just don't think it's effacious for there to be atrificial barriers erected between members of a group that seeks to do the Great Work together. It is a relationship of the most intimate nature, and if a group feels it must hold something back from _any_ of their members, then they have no business accepting that member in the first place. The temptation for the high mucky-mucks to surround themselves with fawning sycophants is just too great of a danger. A grade secrecy system allows for the _possibility_ of this occuring, and I guess I just don't trust human nature enough to see any reason to even allow the possibility. RD> And yup--I do believe that the Big Secrets aren't 'secret' because RD> nobody will confide them, but because they *can't* be confided--they RD> gotta be experienced. My point exactly. So anything else is highly suspect! Secret orders allow for hidden agendas... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 12 Oct 94 09:54:00 Subject: Re: MAGICK VERSUS RELIGIO UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Joseph Max <=- JM> As for John Dee - I would take exception to calling him a mage. JM> Perhaps Josh Norton can back me up or correct me on this, but as I JM> understand it, there's no record of Dee having done any magickal _work_. JM> He cronicled what Kelly scryed, and tried to drag it into a coherent JM> structure, but he was more a "speculative" than an "operative" magician, JM> to use the old Masonic expression. That's why he worked with Kelly, whom JM> he found rather distastful, in the first place - Dee couldn't channel a JM> spirit to save his life! All he did was astrology, and any good JM> mathematician can handle that. JM> Kelly, on the other hand... Dee's diaries mention him doing some JM> "ill-advised" magic and alchemy on his own, but I wouldn't hold JM> Kelly up as a glowing example of a religious magician! GG> Actually, I'm fairly sure Dee was more active than that. A friend of GG> mine, when he was in England at whatever library/museum contains Dee's GG> written work, copied (by hand) instructions Dee created for making a GG> magical trumpet for calling certain kinds of spirits. This he laters GG> gave to Kelly (the formula/spell) as a wedding gift. I believe their GG> are other unpublished examples in his diaries and surviving papers. This merely illustrates my point - Dee wrote out _instructions_ for making a magical trumpet, but it never states that he actually _built_ it, or more importantly, that he actually _USED_ it. That he gave it to Kelly as a gift further illustrates the point that _Kelly_ was the "operative" magician of the pair. Sure there are plenty of Dee's instructions on hwo to make various magical tools - I used his notes to construct an Enochian Magic Table. Actually, his instructions leave something to be desired; he can be anal-retentively exact in some sections, and maddeningly ambiguous in others when describing the construction of one particular tool - the Table is a good example of this. The general conscensus of Enochian students seems to be that Dee was in fact rather fearful to actually use any of the operations described to him by the "angels", (see the Goffery James book with the possible exception of the Ring of Micheal, which he wore for protection during scrying sessions. He had that typical "mad scientist"-like morbid curiosity with the amazing process that was unfolding before him, but chose to be more the aloof observer rather than active participant. That he was very much afraid of the possible "demonic" character of the "angels" communications at first is quite clear in his diaries. I get the impression that he may have never gotten over that fear, but his "scientific" curiousity outweighed whatever misgivings he might have had about continuing. So he cronicled what was happening, but kept his "hands clean" of any "demonic" influence by not actively participating in any operations. ... Sacred cows make great hamburger. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 12 Oct 94 09:54:00 Subject: Magickal Orders UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Joseph Max <=- GG> I'm not going to go through and do a point by point debate with you GG> on this because I think, like Josh, you have an insurmountable chip on GG> your shoulder about magical orders so it wouldn't be worth the work. I GG> will comment on a few points though. Aw, com'on... I think the we've got the Sword calling the Athame sharp here. If anyone (or group) can be charged with having a chip on their shoulder it's secret magickal orders and their "inner" circles. Look at your quote below: "Like it or not, we are a structured order (etc.)" JM> If they're of no use without deeper understanding, JM> and they don't understand them, what does it matter? GG> I didn't say they were of "no use." They aren't of use in what we use GG> them for. There is a difference. OK, so you're hoarding them for _selfish_ reasons instead! Excuuuuuuse me! You've set yourselves up as the exalted arbiters of who's "worthy" of having access to your "knowledge" then. How Setian of you. When I look at cases where such secret knowledge has actually come to light, as in the Setians _Book of Coming Forth by Night_ it merely adds confirmation to the theory that such knowledge is usually quite embarrassing in it's content when held up for open analysis by independent observers. But it never gets this analysis by members admitted to the inner circle because they have been coerced into taking powerful oaths to not reveal it, as well as the fact that once they're in the inner circle they have a vested interest in perpetuating the scam. Even when they realise in their heart of hearts that not only does the Emporer have no clothes, but a huge hard-on as well... GG> Like it or not, we are a structured GG> order with certain goals and accepted means of running the order. We GG> follow the 350+ year old Fraternal system when it comes to group GG> dynamics. The system does work. Yes, and Fascism works too. Mussolini made the trains run on time. So what's your point? Your 350+ year old system is about as relevant to the New Aeon of magick as the feudal system of government, which is of equal lineage, is to modern politics. Why don't we use the feudal system anymore? Because it's outdated, irrelevent to modern times, allows for rampant abuse of those who occupy the lower ranks and encourages largress and indolence among the upper ranks. Just like the fraternal system you so enthusiastically defend. Hark, do I hear the lid on the trashcan of history being opened...? JM> GG> on the learning of these "secrets" and their development. You don't JM> GG> expect every think-tank or lab to give their techniques JM> GG> to the world when they're using them for resarch. JM> JM> But you're not using them for research, you're using them as a JM> reward for the faithful. GG> No, we aren't. We're using them to particlar ends. Specifically, the GG> goals of the order. If you don't like the goals, don't join the order. GG> Simple enough. How can I know what the "goals" of the Order are unless I join the Order? Why can't your Order allow a potential member free access to whatever "mysteries" are in the system with the explanation that whatever they don't understand will be learned as they undergo their training? I can go into a medical library and read a book on brain surgery and admit that I don't understand it. And the medical school will tell me that I can learn to understand it if I undergo the training they offer. But I _trust them_ because they aren't hiding what they intend to teach. I don't have to undergo an intense training process, investing my time, money and effort only to discover at the end they are teaching a bunch of crap. As a reasonably intelligent person, I can look at that brain surgety book and at _least_ be able to tell that it isn't sheer bullshit. And it might pique my interest and inspire me to become a surgeon. I sincerely wish that Western magickal systems today could take an example from the system used by Martial Arts schools. None of their methods are "secret", but there is a strict system of advancement that requires the student to undergo intense training and testing to advance. Reading a book on Kung Fu will not make you proficient in the art, but there are plenty of books available, and I see no evidence that it sullies the art in any way, do you? JM> A commercial research organisation has a different agenda - JM> making a commercial profit. Is that your goal? GG> No, our goals are the Great Work. We feel we can create a better GG> environment in our order for this than releasing every bit of GG> information with no rhyme or reason to anyone who wants it. I'm curious - describe what you mean by "better environment" - better than what? Freedom? Open inquiry? Independent assessment? You know, the kind of things that lead to _advancement_ in any work of Art or Science? JM> Hey, go ahead and have a "grade system" in an organisation and JM> dispense all the degrees you want. But if you hold "occult secrets" JM> back, _especially_ from those you've admitted to the group, you're JM> instantly suspect of having reason #2 as the real, hidden agenda. GG> Why do you think we're holding things back from our members? Full GG> membership in the order (something it only take a certain amount of GG> commitment and actual work to attain) allows one to do what they want GG> within the order in pursuit of the Great Work. Certain members with GG> common interests work together in groups within lodges or between GG> lodges to develop their interests. They share their work on these GG> areas with each other. Why should they turn around and hand what they GG> have done to people who haven't done the work they have to understand GG> it and to develop it? The point is, why _not_? WHat would it hurt? Maybe there is someone out there that you haven't ever had contact with that will come forward with an incredible insight that due to the stultified system you work with, no one within the Order ever thought of before. That's why scientists publish their work and fight tooth and nail for openness in scientific research, even in defience of the governments they may work for. Only the governments have any reason to keep such things secret, and they are not very nice reasons. So any magickal order using such tactics is immediately suspect of having something, at least, _embarassing_ to hide. The only case you seem to be making is standing on _selfishness_, and I don't see that going hand-in-hand with the Great Work. GG> I've never said that members of the order are keeping huge secrets GG> from each other. And the problem is, as always with such organisations, that we only have your word for that. GG> We don't have a 10, 20, or 30 GG> degree system. In fact, we have three degrees and all and have sound GG> reasons for them. The lower degrees are only occupied by people who GG> either choose not to advance (due to other obligations outside of the GG> order) or people who are working on the required grade work. This GG> grade work is there to make sure that all full members have a certain GG> basic level of skill before they start working on their own projects GG> within the order. I can't see how anyone could consider this mind GG> controll or trolling for followers. Mind control is very subtle business. "Required Grade work" usually involves stuff like rote memorization and recitation (a common brainwashing tool), and being locked into a One True Way of thinking by having "authority figures" (those higher in the Order) tell you exactly how to interpret the learning presented to you. See, in the Martial Arts, one can walk right into a dojo and become a black belt in _one day_: you do what they call "taking it to the mat". If you can demonstrate to the Master of the dojo that you have the requiste skill - usually by kicking his ass in front of the students - he'll hand you _his_ black belt! A healthy Order of _any_ kind that has respect for truth and individual achievement, one that has nothing to hide, does not fear such openness. _Anyone_ is welcome to "take it to the mat" and prove their knowledge. Or not. But the path is available. And the Secret Knowledge scam is inherently a troll for followers in and of itself. The appeal of the "unknown secrets". It works for the Shriners! GG> Perhaps you don't agree with orders or with orders that require a GG> certain amount of work or skill level from their members but I don't GG> have a problem with them. If you read my reply to Rose Dawn on this subject, you will see that I myself work with an Order that requires such levels of work and skill. What I have a problem with is the lack of openness with what other orders have to offer. It's suspicious on the face of it. The only thing that a member of my Guild agrees to hold secret are the identities of other members from the general public without permission. This is simple personal descretion. Anything else in our rather extensive body of work can be shouted from the rooftops - or at least downloaded from various BBS's that have it on file. If it's of use to others on their quests, it gives us great honor and pleasure to help anyone else follow the Path, for we all need all the help we can get. If it is of no help to a particular person, no matter, it cost us nothing to offer it. We don't do the Great Work like decadent Xtian monks in a catacomb or fascists in a secret underground bunker. We do not do the Work just to slime our way through a grade system for status. We do not allow another fallible human being to judge us as "worthy" or not to possess magickal knowledge. We Work to change the world for the better. It is our True Will to do so. We're not afraid of outside scrutiny - we _encourage_ it. We're trying to bring forth the New Aeon. Imparting magickal knowledge to the world is going to be a vital part of bringing that about. It effects changes on the collective unconsciousness, and these changes are greatly to be desired. Our Work is far too important to fart around playing little kids "secret clubhouse" games. The new millenium starts in less than six years. Care to join us? ... Admit nothing, deny everything, and initiate counter-accusations. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: RAINLAKE 12 Oct 94 22:31:00 Subject: MEDICAL QUANDARY... UpdReq R>-> Interesting... I have the same quandary plus some... I have R>-> Crohn's disease which is an autoimmune disease much like lupus but it R>-> affects the G.I. tract. But another thing I have to contend with is t R>-> fact that the magical process itself, as you put it, does alter brain R>-> waves and I am an epileptic. Sometimes ritual can send me into migrai R>-> and seizures... however, my magick is important to me and I want to R>-> learn how to use the magicks to stop the seizures and migraines. R>I'm an herbalist, so I think I can help with the migraines. About the R>seizures, let me do some thinking and reading and get back to you...not R>up to writing much tonight. I know Crohn's is a real stinker. Thanks, I appreciate that! Will be waiting and watching... Bright blessings, Morgan * QMPro 1.02 41-7560 * Remember, Reality is the leading cause of stress! --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718