From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 5 Oct 94 19:34:00 Subject: Magick versus religion UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Joseph Max zwan Rainlake ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Magick versus religion, n'qah? [about magick and religion] JM> Of course, my above statements will likely bring down the wrath of the JM> religious upon me, but oh well -- I'm tough. I can take it ... As one who's fairly religious (in an irreverent sort of way! :), I'd like to respond to your "above statements." I've put them below so as to put this intro first, but not edited them. JM> I apologise for any impoliteness, but I guess the subject of JM> intermixing transcendental (religious) and magickal philosophies is one JM> of my "buttons". As a magician, I am profoundly opposed to religion. I JM> see them as two mutually exclusive modes of thought. I see them as A) occasionally overlapping and B) otherwise irrelevant to each other. (Yes, I'm aware of how inconsistent that sounds, but I can't help it.) Part of the confusion comes from the fact that (IMDefinition) "magick" is a superset of "thaumaturgy" and "theurgy," which sets have a bit of overlap. I also leave a little room in "magick" for things that are neither of the two T's. Thaumaturgy, unless it calls on a deity for aid (which, to my mind, does _not_ make it theurgy), has little or no relation to religion, while theurgy's relation to religion cannot be removed without moving outside the sphere of theurgy. It's possible, given your comment below about spirituality, that what I'm talking about is stuff that you'd classify as spirituality, but I call it religion. I'll specify why later. JM> This is not to JM> confuse "spirituality" with "religion". Religion is by nature a JM> practiced ideology, and the main products of any ideology are JM> repression and corpses. Religion invariably involves worship of deity, JM> and subjegation of the Will to a "higher power". Not so. "Worship" involves the honoring of a creature (or concept or whatever, but I tend to reserve it for creatures, even if they may be personifications of concepts), the act of valuing it as having worth (from ME "worth-ship"), and similar activities. These may include self- abasement, but it isn't necessary; worth is not a non-renewable resource in the universe, and one creature's attainment of worth does not diminish another's. Though I may not be as worth-ful as a God (I can't create stuff, transcend time, etc., or at least, not as well! :), that doesn't mean I'm not worthy as a human. My patron God in particular is one who actively encourages the recognition of humans as creatures of worth, the seeking of greater worth by said humans (and every other creature in existence), and the promotion of free Will and personal choice. Bowing down and subjugating myself to Him (or any other God) would be very incorrect for my path. You might say it would be against my True Will. JM> In order to follow the JM> path of Magick, one must accept that there _is_ no higher power, no JM> loftier goal, than to do one's Will in the world. "No loftier goal," I would tend to agree with (though I think the simultaneous encouragement of others to do *their* True Wills is at least as lofty, as long as it doesn't interfere with one's own efforts in that regard). However, "no higher power" seems to me to overlook the presence and power of the Gods, whose works I have observed and consider to be higher and more powerful than my own. JM> Otherwise one JM> severely limits one's possible expression of the Magickal Self. To me, JM> this is the antithesis of what Magick is about: the elevation of the JM> Magician to being hir own God of hir own Universe. That is lofty, but I keep asking myself, "What about other universes? What about *reality*?" This isn't aimed at you; it's coming out of the Klingon Wicca thread. But I *do* believe in an "objective reality." It seems that some might manage to elevate themselves to Gods of their own universes, but still be total dweebs as far as the rest of us are concerned, and in "reality." And that doesn't seem like such a lofty goal to me. JM> Here's a useful metaphor: have you seen the film "Amedeus"? Let's JM> grant that Mozart was a musical "adept". His adepthood was a JM> spontaneous expression of his Divine Genius in that realm. He had his [etc...] JM> So like Mozart, a true adept should be able to use hir talents in JM> magick the way Mozart could with music, to achieve a survivable income. [snip!] JM> There are many people with serious physical disablities who JM> distinguish themselves in other ways and make a living at it. It didn't JM> stop Steven Hawking, now did it? A pair of very useful and thoughtful examples, indeed! JM> question whether or not one should be considered an adept. A Sufi adept JM> is required to go out into the world to learn a marketable skill, for JM> making a living in the real world is considered part of their magickal JM> training! More power to 'em, then! That sounds to me like a very wise attitude for them to take. (I wonder how the folks on _Pagan_ would have dealt if I'd known that and tossed it their way?) --Kai MacTane. ... Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Chris L Crane 4 Oct 94 17:19:02 Subject: More on money magick UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Chris L Crane zwan All ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth More on money magick, n'qah? CLC> There has been quite an extensive study recently in this echo CLC> concerning the subject of money magick. I've loved every message, yet CLC> there's something thats been missing throughout the CLC> discussion.. and that's more examples of actual rituals, CLC> spells, etc. that are used for this subject/purpose.... [etc.] If you missed my or Joseph Max's posts detailing our methods, I'd be happy to re-post mine, and I doubt Mr. Max would have any problem with doing likewise. --Kai MacTane. ... Zen Shakespeare: To Be AND Not To Be. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Andrew Hotopp 4 Oct 94 17:21:04 Subject: Re: new UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Andrew Hotopp zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth new, n'qah? AH> Hi, I am generally known as Satan but I must use my real name here. I AH> am new to magic using and am extremely interested. please write me back AH> with info on many things. later dude. "On many things?" Gee, that covers an awful lot of territory. Do you have anything more specific in mind? And, just out of curiosity, why did you pick me to ask? :) --Kai MacTane. ... We've replaced the Dilithium with new Folger's Crystals... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718