From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: KAI MACTANE 30 Sep 94 09:06:00 Subject: Altered States UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Joseph Max <=- JM> The operant idea here is this: the keys to effective Magick are the JM> altered states of consciousness. I will declare flat-out that if one JM> does not attain an altered state of consciousness in a magick working JM> it will amount to very little as far as "to cause change to occur in JM> accordance with the will." KM> I would be highly inclined to agree there. I would further state KM> that the particular altered state achieved *does* have an effect on KM> the success of the working. There are many, many states the human KM> consciousness can achieve, and many (take "blind drunk" as one KM> example) are not at all conducive to magickal working. This is true. There's an "inside" joke that goes around in my circle about the technique of obtaining a gnostic trance by concussive administration of a two-by-four to the back of the head... KM> Further, of KM> the general set of states that *are* conducive to such workings, not KM> all are equally conducive to any given, particular working. For KM> example, I find that a divinely-assisted rite requires a different KM> "flavor" from one assisted by elementals, or one that runs off my own KM> power. The difference _could_ be likened to the difference in demeanor KM> between talking to a glowering judge on his bench, talking to a friend KM> (or someone of equal standing, but from a different social group?), KM> and hanging out in private. But that's not the best analogy. I agree with you here. Each type of magickal working tends to have it's own "best" type of trance state - usually related to the method used to attain the state. Hmm, let's see if we can come up with a list: ASC method Type of working --------------------------- ------------------------------- Hetroerotic Orgasm Invocation of Godforms Trance Divination (Scrying) Autoerotic Orgasm Enchantment (spellcasting) Evocation of Elementals/Familiars Homoerotic Orgasm ? ? ? Hallucinogenic Drugs Travelling in the Spirit Vision Shape-Shifting Invocation of Animal Spirits Deep Meditaiton Illumination Clairvoyance/Telepathy Fear/Terror Curse-casting This is just off the cuff - I'll think on this some more and post the results, and you could do the same, if you like. KM> Really, the English language (or the specialized version of it that we KM> use to talk about technical points in magick) needs better words to KM> describe gradations in ASCs. True again. Pete Carroll has proposed a possible "scale" of 0 to 1 -- with 0 being normal conscioussness and 1 being comparable to say, a Zen monk levitating six feet off the floor. The problem, and he's taken a good bit of detraction for it, is _how_ to measure such a thing. I would really like to see the tools of bioscience applied here, such as doing EEGs or MRI scans of subjects in gnostic trance states. I see a possiblity of applying a combination of brain-wave measurement with computer generated virtual reality and neural stimulation to try and come up with a baseline scale to start from. The big problem is getting enough interest in it to be able to get access to the neccesary hardware. JM> It really matters not _how_ one goes about JM> attaining it, though some will argue that the method chosen should in JM> _some_ way be "appropriate" to the desired effect. Casting curses with JM> sex magick is probably not a great idea, for example... KM> ... Also, I note that casting KM> curses with sex magick is not only a bad idea magickally, it could KM> also be disastrous psychologically. Most people wouldn't really want KM> to have a correspondence set up in their minds that relates sex and KM> curses. Damn right! Any working you do is going to end up associated with your sexuality at a very primal level, and that would be _big_ trouble if you were doing "combat" magick with it. Not _this_ boyee..... JM> There are two modes of attaining the gnostic state required to work JM> effects magick, to whit: KM> [interesting list sacrificed to Yog B'ndwdth, who is getting fat.] JM> As can be seen from this chart, the excitatory mode can be more JM> problematic. Emotional arousal is the obverse form to meditation, in KM> [etc...] KM> I also notice that the two columns correspond (*very* roughly!) KM> to what Heinlein refers to as "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" modes of KM> ritual (I know he got the terms from somewhere else, I'm just not sure KM> where). Ah, the fundimental duality of the Universe rears her pretty head once again... JM> Are you saying that by someone can simply learn the "correct" JM> incantations and light the "correct" color of candles and chant the JM> words in the "correct" order and derive magickal results? Is conscious, JM> deliberate action all there is to it? I think not... ... RPG Bad Ideas #15: Handing out church tracts in R'lyeh. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 3 Oct 94 00:44:00 Subject: MAGICK VERSUS RELIGIO UpdReq JM> GG> I guess all those Hermetic magicians have been wrong for centuries JM> GG> since they don't fit your catagory above. JM> JM> They most certainly do. To discover one's true Will, by the Knowledge and JM> Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel - the Divine Genius, JM> and to make it manifest has ever been the goal of the hermetic JM> magician. Not necessarily. It has been a goal for most of those in the last 100 years. There are plenty of Renaissance and Elizebethian magi who did not seem to have this as a goal. For example, John Dee. Definately a mage, definately Hermetic but also definately believing in a higher power (which your claim that magicians don't started this discussion). Personally, I don't disagree with seeking one's divine genius as a goal. I have a certain quest for personal gnosis but I don't think it is a requirement for one to be a magician. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 3 Oct 94 01:12:06 Subject: CHAOS UpdReq * Replying to a message originally to ROSE DAWN on 09-29-94 JM> The older entrenched members tend to hoard the "secrets" of the JM> order, whose very existence requires strict adherence to "The Way JM> It's Supposed To Be Done ". If members of a magickal organization JM> were expected to create their own magickal operations and JM> experimentation was considered the key to magickal development, rather JM> than "passing down the wisdom of the ancients", JM> there would be much need for secrets of the Order, now would there? This is exactly the kind of "secrets" that the order that I am in keeps. People within the order have been doing research and work in a number of areas, often for years as part of their personal work. Some found some interesting techniques or ways of working but don't really want them sold to the general public, mainly because they feel people wouldn't understand them without some of the background material and hard work (which most people seem unwilling to do). So, what they do is teach some of this stuff as grade material or as part of side orders, thus keeping a little bit better control on the learning of these "secrets" and their development. You don't expect every think-tank or lab to give their techniques to the world when they're using them for resarch. I feel that same about techniques developed internally in magical groups. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Bevmiester Area: MagickNet To: All 3 Oct 94 02:28:00 Subject: howdy y'all UpdReq Just thought I'd let y'all know I'm back BBS-ing. Most probably don't remember me, but thats fine, I never really did post much. But now the Computer finially works again, and my sysop is again here to watch over me, so you'll see me here-and-there, now-and-again. Started in the Gardenarian-trad a few years ago, but I'm kinda finding my own path, now. Just married a beautiful woman of the same faith (Lovit when that works out 'eh gang?). We live in a virtual zoo of plants and animals. No kids yet, so that means more time for the other "kids". Would love to chat to anyone interested in non-"inflammatory" conversations, I'm pretty easy going, so no flammings from this Hombre. My fuse is long, but it has burnt pretty low before with minimul explosions, so no worries there. Hobbies include: Herbs, animals in general, talismans, all paths of paganism ( cause I think everyone should get a fair shake, and everyone has a piece of the "Big pie"), My wife (cool hobby huh? grins), etc. could get real long winded in all the stuff I like to do. So drop me a line or 2, and maybe we can get some threads goin, remember all the old threads are still new to me so pardon my ignorance if I blunder now and again. |-----------------------------------| |... | | ... | | ...Deep flourishing bow... | | ... | | ... | |The Bevmiester strikes again! | | *peace* | | **BB*** | |-----------------------------------| * OLX 2.1 TD * And when the music stops,thers only the sound of the rain 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Eaglestar Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 3 Oct 94 16:07:00 Subject: Money Magick UpdReq Joseph Max said, sounding intelligent: *---------------------------------------> |-=> Quoting EagleStar to All <=- || Ea> Would someone please post a spell or ritual that | Ea> they have used successfully, to gain money? || The Adoration of Money | A Rite of Blue Magick || [Sniped, but save!] | *---------------------------------------> Thank you very much! We will be doing this ritual on the New Moon this week. Thank You and Blessed Be <<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>> EagleStar <<<<<<<<<<<<*>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... Bad Credit? No Credit? No Problem. No Money? Problem. --- * 10/03/94 * 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: CHRIS L CRANE 2 Oct 94 04:13:24 Subject: Re: More on Money Magick UpdReq -> Incredible spell working.. thank you for your input! -> Hope to hear from others though as well about thier spells -> and rits concerning money. Even if its an inscense, or -> candle rit... THANKS! These two may not be available if you're not American, but I find that a combination of High John the Conqueror and sassafras can be used with most any standard money spell to put out a *phenomenal* attractor-vibe for survival money. It won't get you luxuries and it doesn't seem to work for Yuppies, but if the cupboard is getting bare, it WILL fill it. Try this: Make a collage or drawing of what your world would look like if you had ENOUGH MONEY NOT TO WORRY ANYMORE, whatever that means to you. Place a green pillar candle in a cauldron or pottery vessel, ringing it with honeysuckle vine, and arranging chunks of High John and sassafras in the vessel around the base of the candle. Set the collage on your altar and the vessel on top of that, and light the candle. Invoke High John himself, and your most maternal Goddess. Raise power, and set a small stable cone of it whirling around and above the vessel. See the tip of the cone spinning steadily off toward unseen sources of "surprise" money. (Don't picture these sources specifically...let the energy find what it will.) LEAVE THIS RUNNING FOR SEVERAL DAYS IF POSSIBLE...letting the candle burn all the way out is best. "Sweeten" your mailbox and front door with bunches of fresh mint or dill, two "money-friendly" herbs. When the candle is about to burn out or the spell seems to want to end, ground all remaining energy into the mailbox. Then just TURN YOUR SITUATION OVER IN TRUST TO YOUR DEITIES. If this is hard, a good exercise in warm weather is to go where wild fruits grow or honeysuckle blooms and let the Goddess feed you from Her own unasked-for produce. Within a week or two, you WILL get some form of pleasant financial news. Maybe nothing spectacular, but enough. Bright blessings. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 3 Oct 94 03:30:24 Subject: Re: REPLY, PART ONE UpdReq -> Good luck 2u, but don't negate the possibilities available thru magic -> well as more 'traditional' means> for improving your health and your -> financial status. :> Oh, I don't, and never said I did, most esp. not with the money (see my money spell, posted elsewhere in this echo. I am WELL stocked with green candles and money-chants!!) But one complicator with the health side *for me* is that nearly all magick boosts the magician's immune system at least somewhat; that may not be the particular spell's intent (may even be its opposite, in fact), but *the magickal process itself*, like most brainwave-altering disciplines, usually does do so to some degree. (If you're skeptical, there's some very interesting medical research on the subject.) And I have an autoimmune disease...my immune system needs suppressing, not boosting. An interesting quandary! Any suggestions? Good luck to you, too. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: RAINLAKE Area: MagickNet To: JOSEPH MAX 3 Oct 94 03:54:50 Subject: magick and religion UpdReq Sorry, not physically up to answering as much as you wrote; will try to hit high spots from memory if I can. Actually, *I'm* one of "the religious ones". I don't see how belief that there's a power in the universe bigger or more inclusive than Rainlake Redknife puts any particular limit on my using my *own* power; that just doesn't seem to me to follow, logically speaking. I don't see myself as ugly because other women are also pretty, not even because some of them are prettier than I; why should I feel powerless because there are other Powers? I don't stop writing and getting published because Shakespeare wrote Lear. I do what I do, and the Goddess does what She does, and the last thing it's ever been is limiting. Quite the opposite: it does give me the added option (because She is an almost endlessly generous energy-source) of using Her power as well as my own. We're far enough apart on this I doubt we'd get very far with a discussion, but if you decide you want to reply, couldja do me a big favor? What you write is very interesting and thoughtful, but my physical limits are pretty stringent right now, and it's near-impossible for me to edit and reply to anything longer than 50-60 lines. So if you need to write me something longer than that, could you break it into more than one post? That way I can reply 'graph by 'graph. Thanks. May get to more of your post later if I can. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: MagickNet To: Rose Dawn 3 Oct 94 20:32:20 Subject: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Rose Dawn sent a message to Joseph Max on 28 Sep 94 09:00:41 <=- -=> Re: CHAOS <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. RD> Sure; I'm a Thelemite and an O.T.O. initiate...yet I don't consider RD> myself inextricably bound by tradition-for-tradition's-sake. Crowley RD> his own bad self has spoken about ritual-tweaking in favorable terms. RD> I have run into a *few* pedantic types who seem appalled at the idea RD> of introducing personal elements into Thelemic!ritual!!, but this RD> attitude seems to me to be in the minority. It's possible I've simply RD> been fortunate in my encounters with other people, and there are more RD> fundies out there than I realize; if so I'm glad for it! Funny, my experience is pretty much the same as yours, yet I keep hearing scare stories about fundie Thelemites. [shrug] RD> Sure; posers are annoying, whether they're blasting Skinny Puppy and Hey, waitaminit! I LIKE Skinny Puppy. Not as much as Thrill Kill Kult, but still. Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... Many things I beheld mediate and immediate; 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718