From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: GRENDEL GRETTISSON 29 Sep 94 08:57:00 Subject: Re: MAGICK VERSUS RELIGIO UpdReq -=> Quoting Grendel Grettisson to Joseph Max <=- > In order to folow the path of Magick, one must accept that > there _is_ no higher power, no loftier goal, than to do one's Will in > the world. GG> I guess all those Hermetic magicians have been wrong for centuries GG> since they don't fit your catagory above. They most certainly do. To discover one's true Will, by the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel - the Divine Genius, and to make it manifest has ever been the goal of the hermetic magician. If I may quote from the Obligation of the Adeptus Minor of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn: "... I will, from this day forward, apply myself to the Great Work -- which is: to purify and exalt my Spiritual Nature, so that with the Divine Aid I may at length to attain to be more than human, and thus gradually raise and unite myself with my higher and Divine Genius, and that in this event I will not abuse the power entrusted to me." I can't believe you, of all people Grendel, would make the mistake of confusing "will" (as in "desire") with "Will" (as in True Will, the divine purpose of one's incarnation). As far as doing one's Will _in the world_, it is obviously implied from the above oath: if one was not going to work "in the world", there certainly would be no need to prohibit any abuse of power; "abuse" of power _implies_ "use" of power. "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is merely another way of saying what my quote above said. Does this have nothing to do with magic, Hermetic or otherwise? ... Hey, Rocky! Watch me pull the Necronomicon out of my hat! ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 29 Sep 94 08:57:00 Subject: Re: CHAOS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- JM> First off, I assume from your standard salutations you consider JM> yourself a Thelemite. Think of the rep that Thelemites have suffered JM> under for lo these many years. In fact, they were _the_ bad JM> boyz/grrrls of the occult until Chaotes came along and have somewhat JM> superceded them in that title in recent years, eh? RD> Sure; I'm a Thelemite and an O.T.O. initiate...yet I don't consider RD> myself inextricably bound by tradition-for-tradition's-sake. Crowley RD> his own bad self has spoken about ritual-tweaking in favorable terms. RD> I have run into a *few* pedantic types who seem appalled at the idea RD> of introducing personal elements into Thelemic!ritual!!, but this RD> attitude seems to me to be in the minority. It's possible I've simply RD> been fortunate in my encounters with other people, and there are more RD> fundies out there than I realize; if so I'm glad for it! Yes, you have been fortunate. I will admit that the tendency to cast magickal work in fixed, unalterable terms and symbology is less of a problem among those who identify themselves as "Ceremonial Magicians" rather than "Pagans" -- even for those who call themselves both, a lot depends on which label they tend to place "first", as it were. Many self-identified Pagans, even those who proport to incorporate magick into their Paganism, seem to me to have an attitude much like any other religionist; the gods decree that there is One True Way and we puny humans have no right to deviate from it. Those who see themselves as Magicians first, and Pagans rather more by default than by strong identification with a particular Pagan tradition, have a less pedantic attitude about freedom of magickal expression. Having more than a few friends in the OTO here in Northern California, and having spoken to them about this subject a good bit, it would seem that at least here on the west coast, the OTO is experiencing a "changing of the guard" of late. Grady McMurty is gone, as are a lot of his contemporaries, and there is barely an OTO member left who was in the organization while Crowley was still alive. The "Young Turks" are bringing a change of current with them to the organization, and the attitudes are loosening up considerably. Seems like every 4th degree wants to start their own camp these days! Younger members tend to see the OTO as a magickal organization, as distinct from a "religious" one, with the few throwbacks like Bill Heidrick notwithstanding. So I would say your experience seems to tally with mine and those of my OTO friends, even though I am not a member (I do make it to the occasional Gnostic Mass and have even participated in a few seasonal rites - I was a Tiger in the last Jupiter Rite the Berkeley Lodge held here... great fun, although invoking carnivorous animals always seems to leave one with sore muscles afterwards ...) And as far as cross-pollenization goes, did you know that one of the Curators of the A:.X is also a 3rd degree OTO? RD> The bad rep stuff seems mostly to be propagated by ultra-fluff types, RD> or those who are ignorant of what Thelema is really about, or anything RD> that AC really wrote, said, or thought. My usual reaction is one of RD> irritation, but I don't attach much importance to that rep stuff. Do RD> you think a similar dynamic is going on with the bad rep of chaos RD> mages in some quarters? Oh, yes. As usual the bad rep is mostly crap, perpetrated by the type of idiots described in my previous post that give us all a bad name. And perpetuated by the warm-fuzzy-bunny-foo-foo-white-light-holier- than-thous, presumably to flaunt their own ignorance... > I might be somewhat of an exception, as I came to Chaos Magick via a more > traditional Thelemic/Hermeitc background. I went through a good bit of > "proper" magickal training, which I eventually began to chafe under the > restrictions and assumptions thereof. Too much of a heretic, I > guess... RD> But do you think there's something inherent in more traditional RD> magical systems vis the restrictions and assumptions, rather than RD> simply an effect of the particular group of people you were involved RD> with? Well, to a certain extent I think it arose partly out of the old need for secrecy in the face of oppression that has been perpetuated into our day and age as a means of exploitation of the "lower echelons" of an magickal order. Now you've gone and pushed one of my buttons... The older entrenched members tend to hoard the "secrets" of the order, whose very existence requires strict adherence to "The Way It's Supposed To Be Done ". If members of a magickal organization were expected to create their own magickal operations and experimentation was considered the key to magickal development, rather than "passing down the wisdom of the ancients", there would be much need for secrets of the Order, now would there? As far as I'm concerened, the only occult secrets worth anything are the ones that cannot be "passed down", because know one knows them until they discover them themselves. See, this is where I get confused, because I haven't personally RD> encountered the restrictive ceremonial attitudes that I've heard so RD> much about from others. I'm thinking there has to be more to the RD> delineation that this, as the majority of ceremonial magicians I've RD> met, spoken with, learned from, and done ritual with, concur with the RD> fluidity of approach, personalization of ritual, and application of RD> any appropriate training or discipline, no matter what the source, RD> that trips *my* triggers. > I don't disparge "traditions" , but I don't feel bound to them, either. > Instead I borrow freely from them as need or desire dictates. I'm rather > fond of Egyptian styles, and still work a lot with Hermetic imagery and > techniques - probably due to my background. Not that I try to homogenize > various traditions into a kludged together amalgram, like so many "new RD> age" > types are so fond of doing. If I'm doing an Wicca tradition working, I > try to stay in that paradigm for that working. If I do a Egyptian ritual, I > stick with the Egyptian imagery exclusively (Did a wonderful Egyptian rite > last Solstice - an adoration of Amun-Ra - in full ceremonial dress,with all > the incantations recited in Egyptian. At high noon in Golden Gate Park, no > less!) Grand stellium Leo that I am, I _love_ a good ritual... RD> RD> Hmmm, I'm starting to suspect the differences may be more semantical RD> than actual! I've always heard that it's a good idea to learn the RD> 'traditional' way of doing things and get a RD> good foundation in those ways, as a preparation for figuring out which RD> of those traditional ways *works*, keeping those, and updating or RD> personalizing those that don't. That sounds pretty much like what RD> you're saying as well. RD> I remember not wanting to practice any basic rits when I first RD> approached western c.m., as I had more eastern-flavored rituals and RD> practices that seemed identical at the core, and worked perfectly well RD> for me...I think I started regular practice more as a way of proving RD> to myself that there was no difference than any honest desire to give RD> it a go...but I discovered that there were subtle differences between RD> systems that gave different flavors and nuances, and some of em worked RD> better and some of em didn't. RD> working; it's hard not to hurl when I hear people talking with RD> *straight faces* about invoking Kali and Gandolph as the Lord-and-Lady RD> or something equally bizarre.> RD> Being a scorpion-in-the-woodpile, I tend toward quiet but intense, RD> rather than loud and showy. ;> > Tell ya what - I'll go ahead and post a FAQ-Sheet-In-Progress that > is being > worked on for the USENET group alt.magick.chaos that will give the folks > here some "background" on the subject instead of rambling on > endlessly here. > Stay tuned to this channel... RD> RD> Good call. Thanks! RD> RD> Love is the law, love under will. RD> -!- Courtesy of Silver Xpress RD> ! Origin: Modem Magick /Multi-line/ (619) 447-5010 (1:202/311) RD> @PATH: 202/311 102/943 9600/0 ... Describing magic with words is like cutting beef with a screwdriver... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Perimage 29 Sep 94 11:11:00 Subject: Descent to the underworl UpdReq Thus said Perimage to Josh Norton concerning Descent to the underworl: JN> Fi> I'm looking at various mythologies for descents into the JN> Fi> underworld. JN> Fi> We've talked a little about Ishtar/Inanna and Persephone/Prosperina. JN> Fi> Are there any others you can think of at the moment? Is there JN> Fi> anything similar in Egyptian mythology? Pe> I'm no expert on Egyptian mythology, but I do recall that the Sun God Pe> Ra travels through the Underworld each night in his "boat of a million Pe> years, accompanied by his sister/wife Bast, the cat Goddess, who Pe> fights off the serpent Apep, who continually tries to prevent Ra from Pe> bringing the light back to earth for another day. See chapter XXVII in Pe> 'The Witches' God," by Janet & Stewart Farrar. Thanks, I believe that got mentioned somewhere along the line. ... Just a pothole on the information superhighway... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718