From: Josh Norton Area: MagickNet To: Fir 12 Sep 94 12:22:00 Subject: Descent to the underworl UpdReq Thus said Fir to Josh Norton concerning Descent to the underworld: Fi> Hi Josh! Hello! Fi> You and I have talked about this a little before. Fi> I'm looking at various mythologies for descents into the Fi> underworld. Fi> We've talked a little about Ishtar/Inanna and Persephone/Prosperina. Fi> Are there any others you can think of at the moment? Is there Fi> anything similar in Egyptian mythology? Underworld myths are as common as dirt. No doubt folks here familiar with particular cultures can give you theirs. But my mind must be exceptionally clean today -- I can't think of any! Try again. [reaching into the black hole of memory...] A random retrieval, probably not terribly helpful: - Orpheus & Euridyce (think I mentioned them before) - "True Thomas" -- man gets taken underhill by the elves. - Egyptian Book of the Dead -- the soul in the underworld. - Tibetan Book of the Dead -- the Bardos are somewhat underworldly, IMO - Dante's Inferno. - Epic of Gilgamesh: 1) Enkidu descends to hell to recover some special objects. But he forgets his instructions and is unable to ascend again. Gilgamesh visits each of the gods in turn and finally gets them to rescue his friend. 2) Gilgamesh travels through a cave (the sun's night- path) in the mountain of Mashu, reaches a paradise. - Ulysses descends into hell, meets many fallen heros. Also, cave of the Cyclops. - Many stories of the "land below the waves" in Celtic mythology. - Frodo in the mines of Mordor, etc. Fi> Perhaps the ones who guard the crossroads would be equally Fi> appropriate. Most crossroads guardians are variations of Thoth or Mercury. ... IAO: Institute of Alien Ordnance ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Fir Area: MagickNet To: Josh Norton 12 Sep 94 21:37:30 Subject: Descent to the underworld UpdReq JN> A random retrieval, probably not terribly helpful: Hey thanks! 'preciate it! 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Valkyrie Area: MagickNet To: Spirit Katt 13 Sep 94 08:13:06 Subject: Shamanism UpdReq Greetings Spirit Kat! Since the thread seems to be moving further into shamanism and away from the Celtic focus I'm going to copy my reply to both Earthlink and Shaman's Union for further discussion and because many of your points would be of interest in those particular echoes. I'll also post it to Pagan Chat and Magicknet for those who don't have access to the others if they're interested in following up also, as well as Norse where shamanism is also a topic. SK> I feel the need to put my "two cents" in here. SK>This subject of Shamanism has caught my attention. It was stated that Harne SK>and Matthews are teaching nonsense. I agree with that, but at the same time SK>where they speak of directed visualization in regards to journeying as being SK>the same, I offer this as thought. IF, one does not have the calling for SK>this path, the description of given would sufice for an understanding of our SK>ways. I do not agree with Harner or Matthews for teaching the Path, one can SK>not be taught WITHOUT being called. The statement of "choosing" a power My main disagreement with both Harner and Matthews in regard to what they are teaching is the concept that learning the techniques actually make one a shaman. None of the accomplishments of the shaman are exclusive to shamanism, they can all be found in other magical traditions as well mundane and spiritual traditions. A shaman is an individual who has been through a very specific and recognizable series of events or experiences and been changed by them, but even that is not specific to shamanism, just one of the factors in determining if one is a shaman or not. Mircea Eliade placed a strong emphasis on the ecstatic flight as an identifying factor, and stressed that it was a complex which was recognizable only when taken as a whole. I would place an even stronger emphasis on the receiving of power from the spirits as a result of having entered their world and returned sane and healthy with an ability to return to that world at will, or to see into it. As such I don't have any real problem with people teaching the techniques of shamanism, as long as they do so responsibily. I think that the inclusion of shape-shifting as it is presented by the Harner Institute, and those, like Matthews, who learned the guided visualization to do so is irresponsible. I agree that guided visualizations are valuable, but it should also be remembered that there is a certain amount of trance and vulnerability to suggestion that can cause problems for overly-suggestible people who may have psychological problems and it should be used carefully, just as hypnosis is. SK>animal, or correctly a spirit guide, totem spirit, etc., is so completely SK>false that these would-be's and "tourist" are IN a dangerous position. SK> Shamanism CANNOT be learned from a book, or socalled teachers that are SK>not of the calling. It is folly to believe that it can be done. I have bee I agree that you don't become a shaman as the result of reading books, or even learning from teachers, shamans or not. One becomes a shaman by call and through experiences, but study is also an important part of developing as a shaman and as a person. SK>a Shaman for several years now, I received my calling as a child and accepte SK>the path as a teenager. It was my Spirit Animal that has GUIDED me through SK>my learning. I was Chosen for my heritage, Cherokee and Souix, and what my SK>ancesters were. Over the years I have come across several would-be's that SK>claim a calling (more a desire to go against their upbringing) that can be SK>proven a "tourist" by a few simple Questions: Ancestral heritage would appear to be an important factor, although I don't think it is entirely an exclusive one. I received my call and the teachings from spirits that were from my ancestral heritage. Since the only experiences that were similar that I'd ever heard of were Native American I was confused when the eagle kept insisting that he wasn't "medicine." I was living near the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming at the time which seemed a logical place to turn to for information since part of the first vision was a river of wind, but every time I tried to get in touch with one of the shamans there bizarre things would happen that kept us apart. I finally gave up and just decided to follow my the guides and see what happened. I eventually recognized the three women who were my primary tutelary spirits, although they warned me that they had many names. If I had been more familiar at the time with Norse and Celtic mythology I would probably have recognized them as the Norns. There were three...but they were all the same age. It wasn't until much later that I learned that in many of the Northern traditions the three appear to be all the same age, but either old or young and as such are most often associated with the labryinth and underworld or heroic journeys. I considered it a validation of the journeys...and I needed that since I was looking for excuses or proof that I *wasn't* a shaman. It still astounds me that people want to be one on purpose. I remember researching shamanism intensively trying to find one of the "conditions" that I hadn't met to prove to the guides that I wasn't one although the journeys were interesting and all. Then with the characteristic humor of those type of guides, having convinced me that I was a shaman, gave me a word for it that has been historically translated as "witch" or worse. They told me I was, among other things, a seidkonna. Poetic justice, I suppose, that I now have the task of proving that it does mean shaman. :) SK> 1) Where did they go on their first Journey, and why DID they Journey? SK> 2) What did they incounter, if anything? SK> 3) Did they understand what happened? SK> Only a "True" Shaman of the Path can interpret anothers Journey. Also, SK>a Shaman to Teach another may do so only with the Guidance of a Teacher from SK>the Spirit Worlds. This Teacher will show the Shaman WHO is ready for the SK>path. Now they may teach their offspring to take their place in this realm, SK>but only if the Spirits find them worthy. SK> Only the Spirits can chose who will be able to follow a path. If SK>someone wishes to follow, THEY MUST prove themselves worthy of the PATH. SK>Not because someone "taught" them. These are all very good points. I don't think there is a true path as far as there being only one path only a way of being and doing. Just as there are many different rivers all are fed by rain and flow to the sea with a few which simply pool and die choked because they lost the final vital connection to the joining. There was a mention earlier that in Celtic/Norse myth that there is a difference between Underworld and Undersea. A shamanic vision of that would not be so analytical, but far more poetic. When the sun slips into that nether-world the sky and the sea become one in the darkness, surrounding the land and holding it close. SK> I apologize for being long winded here, instead of "two cents" I put a SK>dollar. I get this way when I read about the Path and how "some" try to SK>corrupt it. I don't see any need for apology. Ves Heil, V * SLMR 2.1a * Of his wit hath need who widely fareth... (Havamal) 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Valkyrie Area: MagickNet To: Fran Mcgee 13 Sep 94 08:24:12 Subject: Internet UpdReq FM>Quoting VALKYRIE to FRAN MCGEE concerning Internet: FM>Yor have been quite busy! Wish I could help, but I am way far behind FM>you in research! Then *ask* questions. :) It's usually while I'm looking up an answer to a question someone has asked me that I find the *really* good stuff, and usually in places I would never have thought to look otherwise. FM>Nice to talk again! It certainly is! Ves Heil, V * SLMR 2.1a * Sometimes being wyrd just isn't enough... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 13 Sep 94 01:27:04 Subject: Sigils UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Joseph Max zwan Chris Lee ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Sigils, n'qah? Hey, Joe, how's it going? :) I hope you don't mind if I annotate your message a bit for Mr/Ms. Lee (gotta love those cross-gender names, huh?). I should start by pointing out that I have no disagreement with anything Joseph Max says here , but I personally use other (though similar) methods, and thought you might want a different view. This matches with Max's last paragraph. JM> Sigils are encoded representations of literal ideas -- names, images, JM> statements of desire, etc. I generally think of them as words and other linear ideas translated into magickal symbology. Sort of complementary definitions we've got? :) JM> There are several ways to derive sigils JM> from words. Traditional methods involve converting letters into numbers JM> (as in numerology) and then using _kameas_, such as 'magic squares' JM> (grids like tic-tac-toe boards with numbers in each square that add up JM> to the same value when summed horizonaly, verticaly or diagonaly - any JM> good book on number games will mention them), or traditional number JM> "grids" like the goetic Rose Cross circle and "connecting the dots" I wouldn't describe the Rose Cross (which is my preferred system) as a "grid," because that brings up a square/rectangular image. The Rose Cross is based on a radial pattern. It has a little cross design in the center, but the rose is really the functional part. To make it, do this: Draw three concentric circles, with radii of about 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5 units, respectively. Divide the center circle into three equal "slices," with one slice on the top. Divide the middle circle into seven equal parts, with one of the division lines toward the top of the diagram. The outer circle is divided into twelve slices, like a clock face. At the top is the slice that would contain the number 12. As you progress from the center of the diagram out toward the top, you first traverse the center of one slice, then the borderline between two slices, then the center of an outer slice. Hebrew letters go in each space. In the inner circle, from the top, going clockwise: aleph, mem, shin. In the second circle, from the bottom, clockwise: beth, daleth, resh, peh, kaph, tav, gimel. The outer circle, starting from position 12, clockwise: heh, qoph, tzaddi, ayin, samekh, nun, lamedh, yod, teth, cheth, zain, vau. I hope that didn't bore you silly. :) If you're unfamiliar with the Hebrew alphabet, the last two paragraphs will have been largely gibberish. In that case, ask me about the English equivalents. JM> obtained from corrosponding letter/number positions. Many books on JM> ceremonial magic outline these methods, such as _The Golden Dawn_ by JM> Israel Regardie or _Mysteria Magica_ by Denning and Phillips. I also recommend _Modern_Magick:_Eleven_Lessons_in_the_High_Magickal_ _Arts_, by Donald Michael Kraig. It's a very good introduction to ceremonial magick, and strongly promotes the value of individual thought (as opposed to rote repetition) in magick. JM> IMNSHO, it doesn't matter what method you use to derive a sigil as JM> long as you feel comfortable with it. Agreed. That's why I *don't* use Spare's method: I'm not too comfortable with it. :) JM> The method I use was originated JM> in the early 20th century by British magician Austin Osman Spare and JM> involves three parts: rendering a Statement of Desire into a sigil, JM> charging the sigil, and then losing it to the conscious mind. Coming up JM> with the statement of desire is by far the most important part. It must JM> be short, unambiguous and to the point, and contain no "negatives" - JM> ie. "I wish to be healthy" instead of "I wish to not get sick". Be I have also found negatives to be a good way to mess things up. I have come up with what *may* be a way around it: the universal "NOT" ring. You know, like in the "Ghostbusters" logo. I haven't gotten a chance to try it out yet, but I theorize that, for best results, it should be executed in red, regardless of the colors of the rest of the working (with the probable exception of a primarily-red working, where I think it should be black, but am unsure). JM> sure there is only one possible way to interpret the sentence- the way JM> you _mean_ it. JM> The first part involes three steps. First is writing out a statement JM> of desire such as : JM> I WISH TO OBTAIN A NEW JOB Now, my method only works on single words. By placing the word on a talisman (which is what I usually do with these sigils), it's assumed I want to bring that influence or quality into my life (if I charge the talisman during the waxing moon) or banish it from my life (if charged during the waning moon). If I have to get more complex, I suppose I could do each word in a sentence as a different sigil. JM> and then striking out all the repeating letters. With this example the JM> result would be: JM> I W S H T O B A N E J [zapped your actual sigil, 'cause mine looks worse :) ] I, on the other hand, get to play connect-the-dots like any four year old (and they told you magick was complicated! It's a breeze, if you don't do it in Hebrew! :) For example, if I'm working for, say, an apartment, I'll try things out: "Apartment," in Hebrew, comes out "aprtmnt" -- most of the vowels go away (the leading "A" stays, because it's unintelligible otherwise). On the Rose, that's aleph-peh-resh-teth-mem-nun-tau. You might ask, why is one "T" teth and the other tau? Well, partly because I like to use different ones where possible -- it makes the finished sigil prettier. Also, because I like to reserve tau for final T's (since tau is the final letter of the Hebrew alphabet. Also, tau is kind of a "hard" T, or occasionally a "TH" sound, so I like to use it on T's that get accented. However, if the sigil derived from this particular spelling didn't look good, I'd throw it out and try another. I'm easy that way. Anyway, starting at aleph (in the top slice of the center circle) and connecting the dots, I got a shape vaguely like this (start at the back-slash on the top line): )\ / | /\ / |/ \/ Yuck. The angles are all off, and that basically looks only a little like what I drew. You might want to sketch it out for yourself. If you do, you'll find that peh, resh and teth are almost exactly in a line with each other. That's one of the cases where I get creative: the line from peh to resh is curved (represented by the parenthesis in my ASCII-scrawl). It allows me to use the spelling I wanted *and* makes the sigil prettier (a consideration that's actually important to me). The other thing is that the start of the pattern is marked by a little circle, the end by a short straight or curved crossbar. This also helps make it look better. I also do a fair bit of gematria (a type of Qabalistic numerology) with my sigils, checking out the numeric value of any given spelling. Aleph + peh + resh + teth + mem + nun + tau comes down to 6, when everything's done. I then check that out in Qabalistic numerology, and find that 6, relating to the Sun and similar matters, is a generally auspicious and success-oriented number, even if it has little to do with housing. So I can deal with that. (If not, I would have thrown out that spelling and that sigil, and tried something else. Maybe I would have reversed my teth and tau, or tried doing it in Pythagorean numerology or Norse runes or something.) JM> Pretty crude, but maybe you get the idea. There are no hard fast rules JM> to how to do this, except you should be able to make out all of the JM> letters in the combined glyph, even if they "double up" ie. 'W' is 'M' JM> when turned upside down, or 'E' when turned sideways. It's best to try JM> to make it "interesting" looking, whatever that means to you. Try JM> different combos until one looks "good" to your eye. I do think that's important. I also want the "feel" of the sigil to match what I'm working for. Like, a love or attraction sigil (for me) shouldn't have lots of sharp angles; that makes it look all spiky and warlike. JM> Then do a nice JM> rendering of it on the medium of you choice. Some people insist on JM> handmade parchment paper and dragon's blood ink or other fancy stuff, JM> but most of the time I just use regular unlined paper and a nice ink JM> marker. It depends on the situation, as you'll see later on. Heck, I try to use nice unlined paper for my talismans, but I draw the sigil on with a ball-point pen! Why? Because I'll make a hideous mess of it if I try to use a felt-tip of any type. :) A good mage should be pragmatic. (I do, however, try to charge both the pen and the ink inside it as it comes out with energy of a color appropriate to the working.) JM> Next, you must charge the sigil magically. There are many ways of JM> doing this; performing a ritual to focus magical energy on it, using it I use a ritual to focus magickal energy on the talisman. It consists of about five-to-ten minutes of atmospheric stuff, consecrating the space, and so forth, (the Lesser Banishing Rituals of the Pentagram and Hexagram, for those that care, though I've Paganized them both very heavily), then a variable stretch of time during which I call on approriate spiritual beings and forces to aid me in delivering a severe wallop of magickal energy that will basically turn the talisman into a magnet that attracts the stuff I've designated with the sigils (in the example we're working with, it will attract apartments, but I would naturally be specific about exactly what _kind_ of apt. I wanted in an actual working!). I say this time is "vari- able" because, on paper, it looks like it should take about a minute and a half, but it never seems less than five in actual performance (and frequently longer, though I've never actually timed it -- during a ritual, I've got other stuff on my mind! :) Anyway, after all the charging-and-consecrating stuff, I go through another five or so minutes of closing down the circle and then go and relax. :) JM> as a "mandala" and staring at it intently during deep meditation, or by JM> using sexual magick. This is done by placing it in view and focusing on JM> it intently at the point of orgasm. Interesting side note for you, Joseph: the last time I charged a talisman, by the time I got through all the chanting and vibrating and stuff, I felt almost as if I *had* orgasmed, though without anything even approaching ejaculation. JM> In the dollar bill charging, my JM> partner and I painted the sigil on the bill with gold ink, then made JM> love in the Tantric "sitting" position with the dollar taped to the JM> ceiling where we could both look up at it as we climaxed. Another note from an experiment with that type of working about four years ago: my girlfriend and I were trying to figure out where to put the sigil, and finally we figured that place either of us was most likely to be looking when we came was at the other one. So we painted them on each others' foreheads. :) JM> The operating theory behind all this is that the desires implanted in JM> the subconscious mind are magically effective if, and _only_ if, the JM> conscious mind is NOT ALSO THINKING ABOUT THEM. The conscious mind JM> "derails" any possible magical effect. Crowley and others called this JM> "avoiding lust of result", which short-circuits magical power. JM> During orgasm, deep meditation, climactic ritual or any other JM> emotionally charged state, the subconscious mind "opens up" to being JM> impressed magically with an intended result. Call it subconscious JM> self-programming. Using a sigil allows the subconscious to "get the JM> message" without the conscious mind gettting in the way. At the point JM> of charging, one must not think about the sentence of desire, and only JM> look at the sigil as an abstract picture. Your subconscious, of course, JM> _does_ remember what the sigil means and the effect of "inserting" it JM> is accomplished. Actually, I think the type of ritual I do is more one that connects the conscious mind, which *does* remember the desire, with the subconscious. In the best rituals, the conscious mind does sort of "forget" about the desire for a moment or two -- when it gets too busy handling all the other stuff -- and I think those moments are when the magick actually happens. But I don't make any _effort_ to ferget the desire -- it just happens, naturally (probably a mark of a well-done ritual! :). JM> After charging, one either destroys the sigil (usually by ritually JM> burning it) or uses it as a talisman (to roll it up and tie it around JM> your neck would be appropriate if it were made for protection). Our JM> dollar bill game was a variation on this. Since I generally work to produce talismans, rather than sigils, I hang onto them. They "magnetize" the appropriate thing into my life, and *then* I burn it ritually. JM> This is only a short summary of the technique; I recommend _Practical JM> Sigil Magic_ by Frater U.D. (Llewellyn Books) as the best book I've JM> seen on the subject. If you don't have an occult or new age bookstore JM> near you call 1-800-THE-MOON to order from the publisher directly. And if you get a copy of the _Llewellyn_New_Times_ along with your book (or in any other manner), remember that it's put out by the publisher. The glowing reviews of all the books within are *not* unbiased reporting! They're more like sales hype. JM> I hope this helps you on you way. Remember my techniques are _not_ JM> definitive in any way and other people here may offer different styles JM> - pick whatever seems to work and feel best for _you_. From me, ditto that paragraph. :) --Kai MacTane. ... Brain damage? No thanks, I already have some. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: ROSE DAWN 10 Sep 94 14:35:00 Subject: RE: MONEY MAGICK Rec'd UpdReq -=> Quoting Rose Dawn to Joseph Max <=- RD> I've been thinking about different schtuff surrounding money and RD> magick lately, & I realized that, while I've always believed in what I RD> was doing, it's been the whole money magick thang that brought about RD> the 'Holy sh*t, this stuff WORKS!' reaction that most people seem to RD> get behind something unpleasant or frightening in ritual...and RD> wondering why that is! Couple possible explanations I've come up with RD> have been (1) I've already faced down my share of unpleasant and RD> frightening stuff in everyday life, and (2) It's easier to find RD> logical explanations for unsettling occurrences, RD> whereas something as tangible as I-want-money-WHOOMP!-there-it-is RD> either falls into the 'It worked' category, or the RD> entire-chain-of-bizarre- coincidences-of-timing category. Course, I RD> don't discount the obvious--that the profound psychological and RD> emotional effects of ritual lead one to seek and notice opportunities RD> that might've been discounted otherwise--but that *is* magick! Ok, RD> enuff babbling.... Pretty sensible babbling! One of the definitions I like to use for magick is "The Technology of Applied Coincidence Engineering". The "scary stuff" is usually ancillary to actual magick working anyway. The only "use" such experiences have in the great cosmic scheme of things is to deliver a sorely needed kick in the ass when necessary. Many people approach magick with the mistaken idea that their going to see demons and angels taking on physical appearence in their living room, or to fulfill their "Dungeons & Dragons" fanatsies - either making the heads of people they don't like explode, or going forth to "right cosmic wrongs" like some kind of astral Zorro. Real effects magick is simply a matter of making the toast always fall buttered side up. JM> No s**t. The spellworking I described was done at a time when I was JM> almost unemployed and broke, but I was still too damn proud to get on JM> G.A. So I hustled instead, but after spinning my wheels for weeks, I JM> wanted _out_! RD> I don't want to slam everyone who accepts financial assistance--a RD> couple years ago, after hospitalization and loss of job, I was on AFDC RD> for three months. Soon as I was able, I was back to work--the danger RD> lies in accepting poverty and dependence as a lifestyle. Come to think RD> on it, wealth and dependence is a lousy choice too! No slam intended; I've spent my share of time on Unemployment Insurance. And you have a child, which supercedes all other considerations, especially pride. RD> It was musick that got me thinking about the effectiveness or RD> lack thereof of 'traditional correspondences'...ie, that military RD> marches would be a *lot* more likely to make me think of the Fourth of RD> July or old Warner Brothers cartoons, than Mars/Geburah/etc....and RD> that this would tend to jar or interrupt the energy of the ritual, RD> rather than harmonize and add to it. was discussing this with and I agreed that thrash metal or hip-hop rap RD> would replace Souza very nicely ;> > NEwayz, that kicked off a whole RD> free-association process about how much and in what ways things have RD> changed, and which traditional ways of doing things have held up, and RD> which need to be tweaked a little or a lot to 'make sense' to me RD> personally. This is what some other people here have referred to as the "changing current" of magick itself. I, like most Chaos Magicians, think of magick as a highly personal and experimental art. This is not to disparge the beauty and power of "traditional" ritual, especially for works of illumination. We attended an OTO Gnostic Mass last night and found it very beautiful and moving, and it certainly inspired magickal consciousness in _me_. But when the High Priestess accidentally sloshed the Holy Water on the rug and muttered "oops", causing sharp inhalations of breath around the temple, I had to fight the urge to shout "Hail Eris!" >RD> In my experience, 'tweaked' rituals are incredibly powerful, while >RD> i-dotting and t-crossing is more along the lines of 'good magical >RD> practice.' >JM> "Good magickal practice" be damned. I've seen so many people so >JM> hung-up on figuring out what is the "right" phase of the moon or >JM> getting exactly the "right" color of Venusian green candles for a >JM> ritual that they never get anything _done_! RD> Again, sad but true. By 'good magical practice,' I meant good practice RD> for somebody exploring magick, rather than 'sound' or 'effective' RD> magical practice. A ritual can easily be elegant, attractive, and RD> perfectly performed, yet lack any spark of heart or soul or passion. RD> To me, it thus becomes a stage production, rather than an act of RD> Will...all Art, no Science, or all Science, no Art. An individual will RD> *know* if the details are 'close enuff'; or *should* know, if they're RD> not too hung up on petty perfectionism to listen to the intuitive RD> voice. The only problem I have with emphasis on "good practice" in regards to people newly exploring magick is that some "teachers" are hung-up on the idea that beginners should _study_ themselves to death before actually _trying_ any magickal working. This is crap. It's like trying to teach someone to swim by making them study books on swimming and _watch_ "expert" swimmers in a pool! There is only one way to learn to swim, and it's the same with magick -- jump in and _do it!_ Just a few rambling thoughts... Nice talking with you! - J:.M:.555 ... I'm just here to give moral support. Ignore the gun. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: FRAN MCGEE 10 Sep 94 14:35:00 Subject: Re: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Fran Mcgee to Joseph Max <=- JM> It seems to be a given that many (if not most) practitioners of the JM> magickal arts and sciences regard the aquisition of material wealth JM> as being an activity that is "beneath" them. It's as if material JM> possessions and creature comforts will somehow sully their JM> spirituality... FM> I have noticed that most Pagans and other Magicians seem to have the FM> attitude towards money which you describe...sometimes it makes me feel FM> guilty for having enough. (I am trying to shake that one...I know we FM> deserve what we have, and we are responsible for having enough) FM> I feel I have enough, and that is the feeling I work for. I also FM> share, and give as well. FM> Thank you for giving me a chance to explore the way I feel about FM> money, and reaffirm that I do not have to feel guilty about having FM> enough. Guilt is not welcome in my life. My pleasure. I have this strong Erisian streak that leads me to rattle peoples conceptions, but I don't look at is a just being a sh*t disturber -- it's to get people to re-examine their preconceptions and grow accordingly. (Well, sometings being a sh*t-disturber is fun too ) Thank _you_ -- your comments have made my day! ... The trick is to make yourself your own respected authority figure. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: MORGAN LE FEY 10 Sep 94 14:35:00 Subject: Re: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Morgan Le Fey to Cijan Nee Grania <=- CNG> Does it work. I've never gone without! I live comfortably and don't CNG> spend all my time just gathering the basics. MLF> Yes, that is very tiring and time consuming and I am tired of MLF> it. Any ideas for me? Greetings Morgan - Did you catch my post describing the money magick ritual using the dollar bill? Since you have a live-in "partner" to work with it would be perfect for you. See also my post about creating magickal sigils. I'm sure you could get some money movement happening with these methods - but remember, you _must_ provide some means, some "mundane" channel by which the money can reach you. An investment, search for a part-time job, _something_ that will be susceptible to magickal "tinkering". Very few sorcerers can make piles of money fall from the sky... Best of luck to you, J:.M:.555 ... Sometimes the Garbage Disposal God requires a sacrificial spoon. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: RAINLAKE 10 Sep 94 14:35:00 Subject: Re: SIGILS UpdReq -=> Quoting Rainlake to Chris Lee <=- -> Incredible message on sigils... It answered alot of my questions... -> I am learning alot by reading this echo.. would it be proper to -> ask for persons thoughts and prayers to be sent my way?? as I am -> in a tight position with work/home/finances right now. Seeking -> the power to overcome it all... thannks for your incredible -> response!!! Ra> Yes, it was. But may I add that many of us prefer to cast a magickal Ra> phrase, regardless of the method used to internalize it, not as a wish Ra> but as something that has already happened? Not I WISH TO BE WELL, for Ra> instance, but I AM NOW PERFECTLY WELL. That way the subconscious gets Ra> "programmed" to be in the state desired, not just to intensify the Ra> already-existing wish for it. The syntactic structure of the Statement of Intent is not set in stone, so I don't think your method is incorrect -- not if it _works_ for you. I think the operant reason for using a "wished-for" format in the Statement is that for some people, trying to implant a declaration such as what you suggest might find itself at odds with the subconsciousness's image of itself at the time, and therefore be "rejected". If I _am_ sick, and I try to convince my subconscious mind that I'm _not_ in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, it might render the implantation ineffective. Ra> Also, many would disagree that the conscious mind's help Ra> short-circuits magick. That hasn't been my experience, or that of most Ra> successful magickmakers I know. Would you go so far as to say that being consciously _obsessed_ with deriving results from a magickal working is not a hinderance? In my experience, it's a subset of Murphy's Law; to whit: when you are seaching desperately for something, how often does it seem to result in you _not_ finding it. And then when you _stop_ searching, you turn around and stumble over it? The method I described is using this obvious tendency of the Universe to behave in a certain way to practical advantage. Lusting for results _does_ screw up one's magickal workings, believe me. Are you saying that by someone can simply learn the "correct" incantations and light the "correct" color of candles and chant the words in the "correct" order and derive magickal results? Is conscious, deliberate action all there is to it? I think not... If your assessment is absolutely correct, then method actors should be the most powerful sorcerers in the universe! Ra> Also sounds to me like trying to ditch Ra> part of yourself at the temple door...some religions encourage that Ra> with minds, some with bodies, but i don't want to leave ANY of me out Ra> when I do magick. Well, we weren't talking about _religion_, we were discussing efects-magick technique. I don't consider magick a religion -- it is an Art and a Science. Some (most?) practitioners tend to make a religion out of it, but I don't think it's necessary. "Magick" and "Mysticism" are _not_ the same thing! Perhaps some clarification is in order. Trying to do magickal work without _any_ use of the conscious mind is a silly idea. Just devising a working in the first place is a function of the conscious mind. Learning incantations, choosing corrospondences, setting up a temple and making magickal tools requires conscious effort. And clearly the whole procedure I detailed about making a sigil requires conscious action and deliberation! I guess your confusion arises because I thought that part was obvious. I won't even go so far as to state flatly that one can't impress the subconscious by obsessive conscious action. BUT there is an easier way, and for me it's absolutely essential for magickal work -- the achievement of the state that we Chaos Magicians call _gnosis_, or magickal trance. When the trance state is achieved, the magician's Will is "launched" into the universe to do it's Work. I hold that a magickal working that does NOT include achievement of gnosis will simply not produce results. But the trance state is only necessary for even the briefest of instants to be ultimately effective. In the moment of gnosis, the subconscious is completely open to being impressed with the magickal will -- a will that was _conceived_ by the conscious mind, but cannot be _executed_ by it. So if you have successfully internalised your Will, all that remains is to achieve gnosis in order to launch it. But pre-internalising can have it's drawbacks. Gnosis tends to hit rather suddenly, and if the conscious mind is thinking about something other than the internalised desire at the crucial moment, it can end up with the wrong thing being implanted. This is why sigil magic works so well when the sigil is used as a focal point during gnosis, rather than counting on the conscious mind to have ONLY the desired effect internalised at the moment of trance. Achieving gnosis is the whole point of magickal ritual. Otherwise it's just performance art. So it could be that these "magicmakers" you refer to _do_ end up programming their subconscious minds in the manner I describe, but simply never thought about it that way. Not consciously, anyway... -J:.M:.555 ... She said, "Deeper, deeper!" so I quoted Nietzsche in her ear. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: MILAMBER Area: MagickNet To: LIANA 10 Sep 94 16:15:00 Subject: Re: ASL UpdReq ... On 08-25-94 21:08, Liana blessed us all with the following: Li> ... An owl hooted in my ear of words by Milamber to Liana ... Li> Lovely... sigh... I think you just helped me make up my mind. I've Li> been wanting to learn another language and I've been debating between Li> ASL and Spanish... and thinking I *ought* to learn Spanish because it's Li> more practical, but *wanting* to learn ASL because it's so beautiful. Li> I pick the latter. Mi> I'm always glad to be of service... Mi> I've considered learning ASL myself...if only so I can understand my Mi> aunt, cousin, and brother when they start signing at one another. But Mi> I've got a lot to study already...so I'll defer it for the time being. Li> Deferrment works, as you long as you remember when it comes due ;> Who knows? I may defer it indefinitely. I know that, if it's something I really need to know, it will cross within my reach...and if it does not, then I have my answer, don't I? Li> Blessed Be. And you also. Milamber ... I don't want to run and hide, I've seen it all from either side. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718