From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 8 Sep 94 15:33:18 Subject: money magick UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Joseph Max zwan Kai Mactane ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: money magick, n'qah? KM> Pagan, following an *Earth*-centered religion, I feel that there's KM> certainly nothing wrong with wanting access to the fruits of the Earth KM> (regardless of which element they be!). JM> True enough, though not all Pagans or Magicians go along with us on JM> this. Well, yeah. I think some of those are the "New Age bunny foo-foos" you refer to over on Pagan, and I don't think a NABFF calling hirself a Witch makes hir one. But there are also those who have just failed to purge the old Christian "material world BAD; only spirit good " programming out of their skulls. I think they need to learn. KM> I was taught a different definition of Low and High. Low was KM> things done with few tools, right-brained techniques, etc.; High was KM> long, ornate rituals with lots of paraphernalia. Either could be used KM> for any purpose. JM> Again, true enough -- but there is an automatic connotaiton caused by JM> the use of the terms "High" and "Low", isn't there? That there certainly is, which is why I try to avoid the term altogether. For right-left, I try to use ritual, ceremonial, complex and similar words vs. simple, strightforward, sparse, and so on. The other axis is thaumaturgy/theurgy, and those words have *much* better connotations than high and low. KM> I too. I was the one that introduced such thoughts into the KM> discussion of prerequisites for Elders in the Pagan echo (under my KM> "other" name, Prometheus). JM> I folowed that discussion in a somewhat detached manner -- mostly JM> because I follow no system that requires or acknowledges "elders" JM> anyway, but I thought your comments were quite correct. Street urchins JM> and welfare cases who do nothing to better their lot and still claim to JM> be "adept magicians" are laughable to me. I'm still taken somewhat aback by the number of Pagans that have trouble with that assertion. Luckily, many are also firmly supporting it. KM> Very interesting. Were you aware that one of the prime indicators KM> of the healthy-ness of an economy is the rate of circulation of KM> currency? JM> That fact about the economy was part of the "grist" for the mill in JM> our exploration of the concept. Oh, okay. Good to know. :) KM> I think it's still sort of related to Earth, in that it KM> enables you to buy *material* things, but I am otherwise almost KM> inclined to agree with you. I doubt I'll change my magickal system KM> to match; it would be a drag to rewrite everything. But... I will KM> definitely think about this further! :) JM> Being that I am a Chaos Magician, I "follow" a system that is a JM> "non-system" anyway. Or as CM author Pete Carroll put it, "In an Order JM> with no past there is nowhere to conceal the present from the future." JM> Accordingly, I had no "tradition" to divest myself from in the first JM> place - one of the main attractions of CM for me... For me, it's partly a case of there being some strength in a system of correspondences that allows divergent concepts to be easily linked. I think it's a difference in magickal styles. KM> There have been Gods of Wealth in antiquity, most notably Hades KM> and Pluto (from whose name comes the word "plutocracy," government by KM> the wealthy). They have been sorely overlooked in this capacity. JM> Notice how wealth always carries this connotation of "evil"? Not so! The ancient Greeks and Romans had no thought of Pluto or Hades as "evil;" I don't think they really had evil Gods. (Monsters, sure: the Gorgons, Typhon, Echidna, the Hydra, et al., but the Gods were nobler than that.) Though Pluto had His baleful aspects, so did many of the other Gods. Even Athena, usually a friend to humans, could be provoked, as by Arachne. Hera had Her rages. Poseidon was one who needed constant propitiation. But none were thought to be "evil." KM> A very nice bit of Skinnerian re-conditioning, too! Plus, it KM> symbolically "tells" the money what to do... I like this. Efficient. KM> :) JM> Sank yew. I really think that effective magickal workings _should_ JM> contain a powerful pyschological component. In fact, old magick rituals JM> _did_ so, but what was psychologically effective in the past may not be JM> in the present. [and more on this topic...] Hey, you've read Bonewits' _Real_Magick_, haven't you? He's got a few choice paragraphs on that topic. JM> mass"; hanging crucifixes upside down and wearing goat's horns was JM> bizzare and frightening a few hundred years ago, and it achieved the JM> desired effect of _shocking_ the participants into a gnostic state of JM> terror and breaking through the bonds of "normalcy" by a glorious act JM> of iconoclastic rebellion. I'm still not so sure of that; the ones in the French court come to mind, and I don't see LaVoisin's actions as indicative of having achieved any gnosis worth having. JM> effect of silly amusement instead. Tossing a brick through the JM> television is far more liberating today than stomping on a communion JM> wafer. JM> After a few days of this the phone JM> call came through from an old connection in my profession who "thought JM> of me out of the blue" when a job prospect came up that was perfect for JM> me. The money sensed the frenzied motion and came running! Afterwards, JM> we gave the dollar to a homeless person, combining the idea of JM> "sacrifice" with the idea of "keep it circulating"! KM> Very nice. Do you mind if I keep this one on file and pass it KM> around to others who may be interested? JM> Not at all -- I would be more than pleased if it can be of help to JM> others. Maybe I'll write it up properly as a ritual working and post it JM> here for anyone whose interested. JM> There are other anecdotes, but I'd like to hear from others here with JM> any thoughts or experiences on the subject to share. KM> Just to wrap up, my usual method is fairly straightforward. KM> I do up a talisman, pretty much straight from Don Kraig's _Modern_ KM> _Magick_. I try to get fairly creative and complex with my sigilling KM> -- I'll work out the numeric correspondences any d*mn way I can get KM> them to fit, try different locations on the Rose for the overal shape KM> and "feel" of the sigil, stuff like that. But it basically boils KM> down to a more-or-less-standard Qabalistic talisman. Then I charge KM> the living daylights out of that sucka and keep it on me until I've KM> got whatever-I-wanted. (Mostly jobs and apartments, so far.) When the KM> spell's purpose has "come to fruition" symbolically (I receive my KM> first paycheck or unpack the last box of stuff) I burn it in a brief KM> informal ritual. JM> Seems sound and practical to me! Have you read _Practical Sigil Magic_ JM> by Frater U:.D:.? Fantastic book on the nature of sigil magic - highly JM> recommended! I've leafed through it length in a bookstore, but I recall it was kind of heavy on the A.O. Spare, and I never could get into his sigilling methods. The shapes derived just do nothing for me. Too square. KM> ... Coming soon from LLewellyn-Frank Zappa's "Tarot of the Plastic KM> People" JM> ROTFL -- mind if I steal that tagline? Go ahead, that's what they're there for! :) --Kai. ... Wind/In my hair/Shifting and drifting/Mechanical music/Adrenalin SURGE ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Kai Mactane Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 8 Sep 94 15:41:20 Subject: money magick UpdReq -> Ygr'th na Joseph Max zwan Rose Dawn ngah'wlaq -> r'hylth Re: money magick, n'qah? RD> In my experience, 'tweaked' rituals are incredibly powerful, while RD> i-dotting and t-crossing is more along the lines of 'good magical RD> practice.' JM> "Good magickal practice" be damned. I've seen so many people so JM> hung-up on figuring out what is the "right" phase of the moon or JM> getting exactly the "right" color of Venusian green candles for a JM> ritual that they never get anything _done_! I can see your objection, but I know that, for me, the shade *is* important! Especially with the green that you use as an example. Some shades of green are Venerian to my eye, but others are earthy and fertile-looking. If I try to do a Venerian working with pine-green candles, I'll be continually fighting the urge to see them as Earth symbols. Of course, this is very different from "the Ascended Masters told me the candles *must* reflect exactly in the 5200 angstrom range." :) --Kai MacTane. ... I was on a Paris train/I emerged in London rain... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718