From: JOSEPH MAX Area: MagickNet To: KAI MACTANE 2 Sep 94 10:49:00 Subject: Re: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq -=> Quoting Kai Mactane to Joseph Max <=- JM> What do people here think of using magickal techniques in order to JM> gain wealth? KM> Mine have worked just fine. :) KM> That answer obviously includes my response to your later comments KM> about money workings being low or "beneath" a practitioner of magick. KM> If I thought that was the case, I wouldn't have done it. As a KM> Pagan, following an *Earth*-centered religion, I feel that there's KM> certainly nothing wrong with wanting access to the fruits of the Earth KM> (regardless of which element they be!). True enough, though not all Pagans or Magicians go along with us on this. JM> "Money spells" and the like are called _Low_ Magick workings JM> and thought of with contempt. KM> I was taught a different definition of Low and High. Low was KM> things done with few tools, right-brained techniques, etc.; High was KM> long, ornate rituals with lots of paraphernalia. Either could be used KM> for any purpose. Again, true enough -- but there is an automatic connotaiton caused by the use of the terms "High" and "Low", isn't there? JM> However, I've always had little respect for someone who claims to be an JM> adept magician but can't afford to eat properly. These people have no JM> appreciation for the advantages that an adequate income can contribute JM> toward their spiritual projects. KM> I too. I was the one that introduced such thoughts into the KM> discussion of prerequisites for Elders in the Pagan echo (under my KM> "other" name, Prometheus). I folowed that discussion in a somewhat detached manner -- mostly because I follow no system that requires or acknowledges "elders" anyway, but I thought your comments were quite correct. Street urchins and welfare cases who do nothing to better their lot and still claim to be "adept magicians" are laughable to me. JM> ...with the idea that the nature of wealth has changed just as money JM> itself has changed -- from land to gold to paper to plastic to bits in JM> a data stream. JM> Money is no longer of the nature of Earth; it is of the nature of Air. JM> Like Air it is ethereal; difficult to grasp and mostly unseen. Above JM> all, it likes to _move_. Money in motion replicates itself. Money JM> hoarded slowly dies. Of what use is money that is never spent? KM> Very interesting. Were you aware that one of the prime indicators KM> of the healthy-ness of an economy is the rate of circulation of KM> currency? That fact about the economy was part of the "grist" for the mill in our exploration of the concept. KM> I think it's still sort of related to Earth, in that it KM> enables you to buy *material* things, but I am otherwise almost KM> inclined to agree with you. I doubt I'll change my magickal system KM> to match; it would be a drag to rewrite everything. But... I will KM> definitely think about this further! :) Being that I am a Chaos Magician, I "follow" a system that is a "non-system" anyway. Or as CM author Pete Carroll put it, "In an Order with no past there is nowhere to conceal the present from the future." Accordingly, I had no "tradition" to divest myself from in the first place - one of the main attractions of CM for me... JM> But most "spiritual" types have disdainful attitude toward money that JM> merely serves to drive money away from them. Money has attained the JM> status of a spiritual entity; like all entities it has it's likes and JM> dislikes. KM> There have been Gods of Wealth in antiquity, most notably Hades KM> and Pluto (from whose name comes the word "plutocracy," government by KM> the wealthy). They have been sorely overlooked in this capacity. Notice how wealth always carries this connotation of "evil"? JM> The bill was then magickally charged (We used sexual magick techniques JM> for the charging, again demonstrating the age-old link between JM> sex/money/power ) as a talisman. KM> In my spells, I have mostly used chanting and visualization for KM> energy. The link you mention isn't a "necessary." :) Absolutely not. Any technique of charging would do -- sexual charging is not required, but the two of us couldn't help but "notice the connection"... JM> For the next several days, she and JM> I (we were living together) used the bill to _pay each other for JM> anything we did for each other_! She'd get up to answer the phone, and JM> I'd pay her. I'd get her a glass of water and she'd pay me. We paid JM> each other for sex. That dollar bill changed hands several times an JM> hour. This little game had the curious effect of making each of us feel JM> more "worthy" of "getting paid". KM> A very nice bit of Skinnerian re-conditioning, too! Plus, it KM> symbolically "tells" the money what to do... I like this. Efficient. KM> :) Sank yew. I really think that effective magickal workings _should_ contain a powerful pyschological component. In fact, old magick rituals _did_ so, but what was psychologically effective in the past may not be in the present. This is something that so many ritualists tend to forget these days. They think that following the routine of a centuries old ritual is "right" simply because "that's the way the ancient masters did it". Nothing could be further from the facts. This ties into our discussion on the Pagan echo about the nature of the "black mass"; hanging crucifixes upside down and wearing goat's horns was bizzare and frightening a few hundred years ago, and it achieved the desired effect of _shocking_ the participants into a gnostic state of terror and breaking through the bonds of "normalcy" by a glorious act of iconoclastic rebellion. Doing so nowadays only makes a modern person think about heavy metal concerts and cheesy horror films; it has the effect of silly amusement instead. Tossing a brick through the television is far more liberating today than stomping on a communion wafer. JM> After a few days of this the phone JM> call came through from an old connection in my profession who "thought JM> of me out of the blue" when a job prospect came up that was perfect for JM> me. The money sensed the frenzied motion and came running! Afterwards, JM> we gave the dollar to a homeless person, combining the idea of JM> "sacrifice" with the idea of "keep it circulating"! KM> Very nice. Do you mind if I keep this one on file and pass it KM> around to others who may be interested? Not at all -- I would be more than pleased if it can be of help to others. Maybe I'll write it up properly as a ritual working and post it here for anyone whose interested. JM> There are other anecdotes, but I'd like to hear from others here with JM> any thoughts or experiences on the subject to share. KM> Just to wrap up, my usual method is fairly straightforward. KM> I do up a talisman, pretty much straight from Don Kraig's _Modern_ KM> _Magick_. I try to get fairly creative and complex with my sigilling KM> -- I'll work out the numeric correspondences any d*mn way I can get KM> them to fit, try different locations on the Rose for the overal shape KM> and "feel" of the sigil, stuff like that. But it basically boils KM> down to a more-or-less-standard Qabalistic talisman. Then I charge KM> the living daylights out of that sucka and keep it on me until I've KM> got whatever-I-wanted. (Mostly jobs and apartments, so far.) When the KM> spell's purpose has "come to fruition" symbolically (I receive my KM> first paycheck or unpack the last box of stuff) I burn it in a brief KM> informal ritual. Seems sound and practical to me! Have you read _Practical Sigil Magic_ by Frater U:.D:.? Fantastic book on the nature of sigil magic - highly recommended! KM> ... Coming soon from LLewellyn-Frank Zappa's "Tarot of the Plastic KM> People" ROTFL -- mind if I steal that tagline? - J:.M:.555 ... Only those who attempt the Absurd achieve the Impossible. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Chris Lee Area: MagickNet To: Joseph Max 5 Sep 94 08:15:30 Subject: MONEY MAGICK UpdReq > Not at all -- I would be more than pleased if it can be of > help to others. > Maybe I'll write it up properly as a ritual working and > post it here for > anyone whose interested. > Thats exactly what I am looking for! Also, I am such a novice to many of the terms used in this echo... can you give me a good definition (anyone) of what sigiling is??? obviously its not in the dictionary.. at least, not in the one I have.. This subject facinates me beyond belief. I'm ready to experience it. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Deep Black Area: MagickNet To: Sewa Yoleme 1 Sep 94 20:21:00 Subject: Re: Discussion wanted UpdReq SY> We feel our way in the dark, actually, drawing from a number of SY> traditions--Wiccan, Native American, Celtic, transpersonal therapy, SY> Shamanism. We always begin with a circle-casting involving smudging SY> (covering in smoke) each other with a combination of herbs sacred to SY> the Yaqui tradition; prayers to the Four Directions; then the Charge SY> of the Goddess. We often do shamanic drumming and journeying, and/or SY> have a Talking Stick ceremony. That sounds wonderful! Did this just form spontaneously or was there a central person(s) who acted as the "attractor." The particular paradigms that you listed as forming the skeletal framework (in that I understand that it is nigh impossible to convey the richness of participation) are ones very close to important portions of my "way." If you feel like it, I'd like to hear more about your group and its practices. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718