From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: MILAMBER 13 Jun 94 17:46:00 Subject: RE: RE: FAMILIARS UpdReq M>--- On 06-04-94 18:41, Morgan Le Fey blessed us all with the following: M> >ML> >My opinion on animal "familiars" is that they are exactly the same M> >ML> >thing as human friends or teacher-entities or spirit guides: they M> >ML> are a M> >ML> >soul who loves you. In this case, they have chosen to be born into M> >a...... M> >ML> Interesting perspective... hadn't thought of that! Gives me M> >ML> something to think on... M> >There are people who will tell you it can't be true, because they think M> >animals have no souls. M> MLF> But I believe they are wrong... M>As do I, and hundreds of other satisfied cat slav...er, owners. And I am a slave... er... owner of two cats and two kittens. ;) M> >But I have interacted with lots of animals all my life, and it is quite M> >obvious that all species have consciousness, thought and personality - M> >there is *no* evidence at all that they have no souls, excapt teh blind M> >assumptions of arrogant humans who prefer to think that they are M> >members of a "superior" species. M> MLF> And when you consider how primative the human race is, it is M> MLF> scary to think that we are the "superior" ones... I mean, just look M> MLF> how violent we are as a culture... even the children will cull out the M> MLF> weakest and torment them. M>Er...not to defend humanity or anything, but this is common in the animal M>kindgom as well. There, it's called "survival of the fittest". Here, it's M>called "misbehaving". Granted... this is my point exactly. So how, therefore, can we be "superior" to any species? M> >Animals are just as likely to have souls as humans, who are after all M> >just a species of animal. If they have souls, they are quite likely to M> >have relationships of love with other souls. No one can guarantee that M> >we have not spent past lives as animals, or will not spend future ones M> >as animals, or that teh pets we have today might not reincarnate as M> >the grandchildren of tomorrow. M> MLF> You mean that there are Pagans who still hold to this belief M> MLF> too? Because in my experience it is the Christians who will tell you M> MLF> that animals don't have souls and therefore when the family pet dies M> MLF> it isn't going to heaven... Bull sh!t! I hope that when I go to M> MLF> Valhalla that I will see all of my pets that have passed on before me. M> MLF> I agree with you, BTW... perhaps this is where we get our M> MLF> totem animals from? Perhaps we were a bear or a wolf in another life? M>I only hope that I may be a cat in a future life. I often see it as a step M>up. Might even be right below "lesser aspect of the God/dess". Me, too... :) Ves Heil! Morgan ___ QMPro 1.02 41-7560 "How do I set my phaser to tickle?" --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Morgan Le Fey Area: MagickNet To: RUSTY WALLACE 13 Jun 94 17:51:00 Subject: RE: RE: FAMILIARS UpdReq RW>MLF> too? Because in my experience it is the Christians who will tell you RW>MLF> that animals don't have souls and therefore when the family pet dies it RW>MLF> isn't going to heaven... Bull sh!t! I hope that when I go to Valhalla RW>MLF> that I will see all of my pets that have passed on before me. RW>How can divinity be in everything and a not a soul? When my 9th grade bible RW>teacher taught that cats didn't have souls, that was just confirmation of my RW>original belief - she was ignorant at best. Having grown up believing that RW>the divine spark is at the root of creation(s) on reservations out West, the RW>idea that an adult could seriously say that the human being was the only sou RW>capable of staying integrated after death was foolish. Some do merge into RW>the RW>great divine but there are enough cases of "spirit dogs" surviving. And whe RW>divine touches divine, the lesser gains strength from us while gain closenes RW>to the original source from them. IMHO, of course! For that matter, how can animals have such individual personalities and not have souls? Wonder how your teacher (and many other ignorant souls like her) would answer *that* question... Ves Heil! Morgan ___ QMPro 1.02 41-7560 "If you prick me, do I not... Leak?" -- Data --- Silver Xpress Mail System 5.00F3 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Dagonet Area: MagickNet To: Ace Lightning 13 Jun 94 13:12:48 Subject: I 'ad to... UpdReq While walking a ley line, Ace Lightning mumbled this to Star Hawk: SH> [> Ace Lightning [> If you aren't "dead" when they freeze you, presumably > [> your soul is linked to your body. If the soul has already left when > [> they freeze you, then either defrosting you will just result in a > [> freshly defrosted, freshly dead corpse, or some other soul (or > [> whatever) will take up residence, and who knows WHAT will happen... SH> Concepts that have already been explored in short stories and TV films AL> I have to laugh at people who think that having their corpses AL> cryonically preserved is going to accomplish anything. They don't AL> freeze you until you're DEAD; clinically dead, probably as judged by AL> brainwave activity. So unless our descendants invent a cure for death AL> in the next hundred years or so, you aren't buying yourself anything. AL> If and when someone thaws you out in the future, all they'll have is a AL> thawed dead body. What do they expect to do with this? Make soup? gaudete, +dagonet+ ... To know the Darkness is to love the Light... 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Adrienne Area: MagickNet To: Kai Mactane 18 Jun 94 08:51:20 Subject: Re: definitions UpdReq Nice post. KM> Here, I can and will pick nits (though small ones, I admit!) Can I pick a few nits of my own? KM> Actually, his claim to have been initiated into a coven KM> of really old folks operating in the New Forest, UK in 1939 KM> has been checked by Doreen Valiente. She details what's known KM> as "The Search for Old Dorothy" (that is, Dorothy Clutterbuck, KM> who Gardner claimed as his initiatrix) in KM> _The_Rebirth_of_Witchcraft_. The practical upshot of KM> the thing is that such a woman did exist, and it's KM> quite probable that she was a member of a coven. Correct. KM> However, "coven" here seems to mean, "a group of people KM> practicing fragmentary and corrupted rituals handed down in KM> *very* inaccurate form from... somewhen, quite possibly as KM> long ago as the Burning Times." I doubt the rituals themselves were, since many of the "old religionists" used the Greater Key of Solomon and the like for rituals. For really OLD stuff, I'd be inclined to look at the folk magics, rather than ritual form. KM> Gardnerian Wicca is a very structured system, based on KM> three "degrees" and tracing lineage (that is, KM> successive initiations) back (theoretically) to Gardner KM> (I say "theoretically" because some folks could have KM> lied and followed the rituals well enough to pass, thus KM> violating the usual "descent"). I'm given to believe that lying about initiation is relatively rare in England. However, it isn't unknown and most of us stuffy types do try to check out credentials. KM> Alex Sanders was a guy who tried to get into Gardnerian KM> Wicca way back when, couldn't find anyone to initiate KM> him, and so bought/borrowed/stole (not sure which) a KM> copy of the Gardnerian BoS, made a few alterations, KM> threw in a lot of Ceremonial Magick stuff and called it KM> a new tradition (Alexandrian). Although the Gardnerian priestess who initiated the person who initiated him denies it, it seems that Sanders did have a valid First Degree and got the Book that way. In many places, the differences between Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca are so slight as to be moot and they are effectively the same family. KM> Alexandrian/Gardnerian (now abbreviated "AlGard") Actually, "AlGard" is an offshoot of Alexandrian and Gardnerian Wicca, put together by Mary Nesnick and the term is only used by her people. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718