From: Dee Weardale Area: MagickNet To: Lewis Stead 18 Sep 92 07:40:08 Subject: Re: PAGAN SEMINARY UpdReq On (18 Sep 92) Lewis Stead wrote to Paul Hume... LS> How would the Pagan community feel if we found out some of our leaders LS> were LS> just making $$ off of us and were really Evangelical Christians. I've been reading this thread with some interest. Here in the UK, Caittlin Matthews has been putting forward similar ideas. She wants some sort of accreditation body to give "official" standing to Pagan "ministers". But of course you can guess who will be in control of such a body. Caitlin alledgedly has quite a hang-up about being known as "reverend" and is believed to be a (closet) liberal Catholic (when in the Pagan world) and a closet Pagan (when in the Catholic world). She wrote an article which was published in the Wiccan which stated what a wonderful idea it was and how UK Pagans are failing the "community". I, and many others, wrote a reply, the text of which follows. I think it useful to know that this debate is going on on both sides of the Atlantic. I am afraid that there are plenty of sheep in the Pagan community, people who want "freedom FROM choice" in their spiritual life just as much as many Xians. Starts ------- Dear Pagan Federation, I read the letter from Caitlin Matthews with a mixture of amusement, sadness and anger. Her letter seems to be addressing two points - Pagans aren't part of their community and there is no formal "Badge of Paganism" (BoP). The first point was quite shocking to me at first. Where we live in the North West, there is a very active Pagan scene, which involves everyone from genuflecting Wiccans such as myself to "chanters" & "dancers" and we all get on together. Public events are held - yes REALLY PUBLIC out in parks with the permission of the appropriate authority and advertised to the general public. Anyone who turns up is welcome, whether they're Pagan or just joggers or people walking their dogs. I know from friends in the Midlands, Scotland, Yorkshire and East Anglia, that the sort of thing that goes on here goes on in those areas too. I'm sure that the situation must be the same in other parts of the country. It may be that Caitlin, being a "name", like members of the royal family doesn't mix with "common" Pagans except at the "..and what do you do.." and "handshake" level. I think that Caitlin (and maybe others like her) would learn a lot from getting to know her local Pagan groups, not as a guest speaker or visiting dignitary, but as an ordinary member. While on the subject of "names", and authors in particular, it was somewhat disingenuous of Caitlin, a Pagan author of Pagan books to complain that no one's writing books about Paganism for non-Pagans. Has she not addressed this gap in the market because she feels it's beyond her? I'll now move on to the "Badge of Paganism". Caitlin cites a number of benefits to accreditation. "A trustworthy guidance to Pagan and non-Pagan alike that the practitioner in question had undergone a formal training", but training in what? Some book of cannon law? The one true faith? The next claim is of a "mutually-beneficial network of Pagans". Firstly, there are many such networks, Pagan-Link, Hob-link, The Pagan Hospice & Funeral Trust, Pagan Animal Rights, etc. and of course the PF! Secondly, there is no reason to suppose that a system of accreditation would end in any such thing as a mutually-beneficial anything. It may even result in the reverse with those who are "beyond the pail" having nowhere to turn. The idea that it will bring "greater public awareness and toleration of Paganism" does not follow. The Moonies and the Masons both have formal accreditation and although the public is aware of both of them, tolerance is not the public attitude, more ridicule and suspicion. "A more powerful basis for all Pagans". What does this mean? It's a dramatic turn of phrase but meaningless - basis for what? "The protection of Pagan rights of worship and practice". If this means she thinks that accredited "ministers" will be able to defend misrepresentation of our rights and practices better than the PF, the Pagan Anti-defamation League and others, I am not sure how. The problems these organizations face is mainly lack of resources and not any lack of weight or respect by the authorities. If the protection is to do with "maintaining cannon law" or stopping Pagan rites becoming "degenerate" by being used by the hoi polloi, then frankly the idea is appalling. Finally we get to the business of distinguishing "real" Pagans from "put-up" media ones. If this is serious, then it is very naive. If the press is in the business of producing fake Pagans (I'm not saying they don't) then printing that they are properly accredited isn't beneath them either. They might simply lie or invent a rival accreditation body. In any case, there would soon be plenty of rival accreditation bodies, formed by those who feel excluded by the "official" one, those who have been excluded by the official one, and "the mad and the sad" who haunt the fringes of Paganism as self proclaimed "kings & queens of the Witches" or those who from their front bedroom will make you a Druid too if you send them a cheque. In the interests of leaving room for others, I will not go on, except to say this - it would be very dangerous for the Pagan Federation to be seen to be floating the idea of setting itself up as the arbiter of who is and who isn't Pagan. I don't believe that this is the case, but from the outside this is exactly what it looks like. Caitlin is perceived as being one of the "inner circle" (whether she is or not) if she is proposing this then it will be assumed to be the will of those "in charge" and even protestations to the contrary are unlikely to alter that view. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Dee Weardale Area: MagickNet To: Paul Hume 21 Sep 92 08:03:44 Subject: Re: PAGAN SEMINARY UpdReq On (21 Sep 92) Paul Hume wrote to The Grey Man... PH> 3: Don Kraig has a vitriolic article on the dangers of being so PH> fixated on "legitimacy" in the eyes of mainstream religion that one PH> proceeds to make one's sect of Paganism a cheap copy of Protestant PH> Christianity. See this quarter's New Moon Rising. Can you supply more details for this, like where can I get & how much is NMR, just which quarter is "this quarter" (Summer, Autumn?), etc? This request is VERY URGENT dur to rapid developments in the UK at present. PH> This is obviously the most negative interpretation of the thumbnail PH> cases presented, but I must say that to me they bring forth all of PH> Twain and Heinlein's most cynical comments on the "professional PH> shaman." More info on Twain & Heinlein's work too please Dee Weardale, Pagan Federation, BM Box 7097, London, WC1N 3XX, UK 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Michael Allison Area: MagickNet To: All 26 Sep 92 17:15:00 Subject: Magick UpdReq Well I have'nt had any magick experiences but my good friend Graham Jenkins has been trying to tutor me in OOBE. I'd like to hear from someone in the states to tell me about Magick. Mike... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Luke Parsons Area: MagickNet To: Barbara Kennedy 30 Sep 92 09:11:00 Subject: cards UpdReq > ERRETH-AKBE 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Luke Parsons Area: MagickNet To: Barbara Kennedy 30 Sep 92 09:13:00 Subject: Erreth-Akbe UpdReq Ahhh.... Where did you get that handle from? It is mine too.... OH well... I spose you have had for a long time b4 I have, have to go change it, byee Regards, Erreth-Akbe 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Donal Area: MagickNet To: (crosspost 2) All 4 Aug 92 09:07:56 Subject: The festival of Lugnasad UpdReq From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: The festival of Lugnasad Don't remember if I already posted this or not. Sorry if I did... Thought that some might want to know a little bit more about Lammas. :) Lug (also Lugd, Lud) Celtic god, son or reincarnation of Dagda, eponymous founder of the cities of Lyons and London - formerly Lugdunum, the stronghold of Lug. His temple stood on Ludgate Hill. "Lud's Gate" was a great stone called Crom Cruaich, The Bloody Crescent, apparently a symbol of the menstruating Moon-goddess to whom Lug was married in suggestively Tantric style. Lug's special festival was Lammas Eve, formerly Lugnasad, "the Games of Lug." The pagan rites of Lugnasad were kept to a very late date at Taillten in Ireland, where the Goddess had been worshipped as a local Earth-mother, Tailltiu. At the annual Taillten Fair, men bought brides in a custom reminiscent of the Goddess's ancient rites of sacred promiscuity and defloration. The hill where payments were collected was known as the Hill of Buying. Taillten was so notorious for promiscuity that any casual sexual affair came to be known as a Taillten marriage. Taillten marriages were actually kept legal up to the 13th century. They were supposed to last the period specified by the old lunar calendars, a year and a day. Lug's curious name may have come in some remote past time from Mesopotamia, where the title of a sacred king, the Goddess's spouse, was "lugal". - taken from "The Womans Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets", by Barabra G. Walker I hope everyone had a beautiful festival! Blessed Be. -------------------- Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350 (Internet & MagickNet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Donal Area: MagickNet To: (crosspost 1) All 7 Aug 92 09:03:48 Subject: Houston Pagan's Night Out UpdReq From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: Houston Pagan's Night Out NOTICE!!! On Tuesday, August 25th, The Brewer's Witch BBS is sponsoring a Pagan's Night Out at McGonigel's Muky Duck. The Duck is located on Norfolk just off kirby (528-5999) and the entertainment will be the pagan duo of Ceili's Muse (no cover!). The Duck is a family pub, so feel free to bring "well behaved" smalls. Please RSVP by E-Mail to donal@brewich.hou.tx.us or post to the newsgroup you read this on if you cannot send Internet e-mail. Let's all get to know each other and swap a few tall tales, ok? Blessed Be, and see ya on the 25th! -------------------- Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350 (Internet & MagickNet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vlaad Thunarsson Area: MagickNet To: All 31 Aug 92 05:29:58 Subject: Sun And Moon Feminine UpdReq From: vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: Sun And Moon Feminine > Interesting! You've just provided me with some info I've been > looking for. I understand from my study of myth that a lot of ancient > peoples--the Japanese among them--started out with deities of both gender for > something. That is, the moon originally had (and still has) both a god and a > goddess. So did the sun, for that matter, but the sun *god* in Japanese has > long been eclipsed (pardon pun) by Amaterasu. I had wondered if the Celts wer > the same. What you say seems to indicate that at least in some times and are > they were. > Erin > > > * Origin: Synners of Cyberia (1:382/7.0) > Yes. We do have a god and goddess for both sun and moon... Want more? Any others? GIve me a list and I'll reply my best. ------------------ vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson) (Alternate) vlaad%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerda Thunarsson Area: MagickNet To: All 1 Sep 92 14:02:46 Subject: pagan seminary UpdReq From: gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: pagan seminary I don't see a problem with that. Eagles Reaches, Church of Asatru (member of the Ring of Troth) has bought land to build a Hof, and part of that land will be dedicated to building a seminary for Priesthood of Asatru/Troth. Gerda Thunarsson ------------------ gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) (Alternate) gerda%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vlaad Thunarsson Area: MagickNet To: All 2 Sep 92 04:43:32 Subject: pagan seminary UpdReq From: vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: pagan seminary re: pagan seminary As one has already been established; you may e-mail me a request for response which I will gladly give to the High Rede of our church. May ye be sprinkled in the blood. =Vlaad Thunarsson= Member - Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru, Elder Hof Member - Ring of Troth House and Hof Champion ------------------ vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson) (Alternate) vlaad%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Gerda Thunarsson Area: MagickNet To: All 2 Sep 92 14:50:04 Subject: The Book Of Toth UpdReq From: gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: The Book Of Toth Jonathon.Blake@f943.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Jonathon Blake) writes: > 93 > > If things as scheduled, we ought to have _The Book Of > Toth_ typed in ASCII Format before the Winter Solstice. > << Actually we are shoting for an earlier target date, > but if we miss our first target date, it will still be > available by then. which version of _The Book of Troth_? the one that is professionally published or the one that is xeroxed and sold? hopefully the latter, as it is edited much more, and you lose some of the umph of the book. Gerda Thunarsson ------------------ gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) (Alternate) gerda%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350 "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Ymir Thunarsson Area: MagickNet To: All 23 Sep 92 21:51:08 Subject: ALCHEMY UpdReq From: ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir Thunarsson) Newsgroups: mag.magiknet Subject: ALCHEMY Frater.E.a.d.n.@f311.n202.z1.fidonet.org (Frater E.a.d.n.) writes: Recently E.A.D.N. wrote: > Uh, with the possiblity of looking silly, I have a basic question that I > can't seem to get an appros answer for.....I'm doing some G.D. correspondence > work and have come across requirements for Alchemy. What I don't understand > is the USE for Alchemy! I mean, is it sex magick? Is it some sort of mixed > symbols to apply toward personal growth? Why the bother? Even if I COULD > turn base metals to gold, it would be a lot easier to get it other ways than > by such a manner. > > Or am I losing the idea altogether? > > Thanks for any and all input towards this matter! > > E.A.D.N. > > * Origin: Modem Magick /Multi-line/ (619) 447-5010 (1:202/311) > As a minor point which might be of some help there are two kinds of alchemy... INNER ALCHEMY and OUTER ALCHEMY! Inner Alchemy concerns itself primarily with the performance of "White Magick" or to be more specific, "White Sex Magick". The concept has some striking similarities to both Taoist practices and some forms of Tantric yoga. Outer Alchemy, on the other hand, is more along the lines of ceremonial grey magick. It uses not just the sexual energies, but the actual act of intercourse, sexual fluids, etc. It is also a province in which the intercourse is to be performed only with someone of the opposite sex therefore, homosexual practices do not fit into the scheme here as they would in Inner Alchemy and other forms of Sex Magick. Hope this tidbit is helpful...if not please disregard the workings of my "old grey matter"! Ymir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Zebrinon Area: MagickNet To: Tommy Watt 1 Oct 92 16:07:00 Subject: hey! UpdReq Are you still there? Find out anything new about the 1-800 numbers? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Daniel Duran Area: MagickNet To: Lewis Stead 4 Oct 92 09:24:38 Subject: Re: Adf UpdReq I hope this means that he convinces Isaac to set up a structure whereby the bills can be paid and ADF can continue to provide the services that attracted me in the first place. It seems that there are a few issues where Isaac could use membership input, especially issues addressed in the DP. It looks like one must tread carefully when getting involved in some volitile pagan issues. Anyway, thanks for your response. I'm beginning to suspect that there are more telecomputing ADF members out there than I originally thought. Are you an active member yourself, or just privy to the inside dope? Dan 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718