From: Airmid Area: MagickNet To: Michael G. 29 Sep 92 08:01:00 Subject: Alchemy UpdReq MG>I don't think that the problem lies in finding the right words to described MG>altered states of consciousness. Mystics have done rather well in that MG>regard. You can't describe an experience unless you've MG>had the experience. Yes, but at the same time, some folks who have had mystic experiences don't have the same poetic way that many of the published mystics do. On the other hand, some descriptions of mystic experiences are about as intellegible as monkeys typing out an acid trip. I had an experience of that sort once, and the ONLY way that I can describe it is to say that I was "full of stars." It doesn't convey anything close to what I experienced, and unless you have shared that, it sounds =very= silly. And that's my point. Most folks seem to want to listen to the blatherings of Ramtha rather than somebody who says something like "I was full of stars." That's why so few mystics are out there teaching -- they're trying to have that experience again, or to continue having it, not running around charging folks a month's salary for three days of cosmic "advice" on sex and the afterlife. OLX 2.1 TD I'm in shape ... round's a shape isn't it? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lorax Area: MagickNet To: Lee Dohm 1 Oct 92 09:04:00 Subject: Re: Discussion UpdReq LD>I must agree. IMHO, there is no point in announcing whether your LD>religion is new, old, or whatever. The only thing that people should be LD>discussing is why the people believing in that religion/philosophy think LD>that it is a good one. Actually, I think that if a religion were LD>*truly* older than another, it would be *less* valid to the people of LD>today. Legion, every generation recreates its own religon, regardless of denomination or creed. Take the Fundamentalists (please!). Most of them do truly believe they go back to at least John the Baptist in lineage, while the truth is that they didn't exist before the 1890's. Time depth is important to western religions, since the West generally doesn't hold the notion of a DreamTime. Thus, as a culture, we confuse Sacred Time with Mundane time. The same is true of NeoPagans. I will cheerfully agree that GBG and Doreen reinterpreted what they had learned, put a new label on it, and then projected its history back to the caves of Europe. (I will argue, however, that GBG transplanted an old religion to England from Pagan Malaysia, then tagged it with English names.) IF we understand the differences between a "mundane" history and sacred time, we can, without contradiction, hold that our religion is timeless, and modern without doing violence to scholarship or magick. OLX 2.1 TD Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Lorax Area: MagickNet To: Lewis Stead 1 Oct 92 09:40:00 Subject: Charging For Teaching UpdReq LS>Geez, up here in Mass. Andras Corban Arthen gets $150 a head last I checked. LS> Commenting on it got me on his bad side, but I don't know how the Gods feel LS>about it:-) LS>In answer to your question, yes this is considered wrong, but since nobody LS>speaks LS>out, it is now the standard in New England with a number of people doing it. Lewis, we are getting this list of people who teach for no cash out in the next 2 weeks. My New England source should be in touch with me soon. Some of the teachers are people who have had a dispute with Athanor over the money thing. IMHO, it is wrong to charge, and for several reasons, but why preach to the devout? OLX 2.1 TD This rune left intentionally blank 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Puck Area: MagickNet To: Daniel Duran 1 Oct 92 11:27:00 Subject: Asian languages and stuff... UpdReq DD> Perhaps due to the reputations they earned while off-duty? Could be - I was a tad young to see for myself!!! Bright Blessings! Puck 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Michael G. Area: MagickNet To: Airmid 1 Oct 92 12:50:00 Subject: Experience UpdReq The point you make is well-taken. I think that there is a "problem" in describing essentially ineffable experience. My point is that there is too little attention given to what's going on inside a person. There's a lot of phoo-phoo talk on "travelling the paths," and "grooving with Gaia" and paying homage to "the earth and the Great Momma," but for the most part, it's at best overly cerebral self-indulgent intellectually masturbation and at worst (and all too often!) a reflection of a thought disorder that looks suspicuously schizophrenic. The RAMTHA's of the world make money because people don't have a frame of reference against which to evaluate their so-called psychic or spiritual experience. For my part, I believe that there are MANY different trips out there which can give a person an altered state of consciousness. CONTACT between minds is real, and it doesn't matter whether the trip is relatively benign, like TM, or whether it's more sinister, like Scientology. People will have transformative, apparently validating experiences. So too with the current Enochian thing--the popularity of which attests to Regardie's poor judgement. It'll give you a major buzz. But the key question for all these trips (including Wicca) is whether the trip effectively organizes one's inner world in ways that facilitate health, intellectual and emotional honesty, maturation, etc., and whether as a result of the trip more becomes more integrated and individuated. I don't think "becoming more conscious" is a very refined objective, since the real question revolves around what one becomes conscious of. We all have our different subjective worlds of experience, and I agree with you, it doesn't make it to say "I feel full of stars." But I do think it's time for people to at least begin to try describing how their objective worlds look. Given their differences in philosophy, did Gautama see the same tree that Blake saw? Is the Eye of Horus perhaps related to a rare perceptual gift called eidetic perception? Do so-called Thelemites (the term is juvenile) really experience their bodies (and matter) in the same way Crowley did, or Reich, and how was Crowley's experience of matter different, say, from that of L. Ron Hubbard or Yogananda? It's important that we demand accountability from our teachers. Phoo-phoo talk offers precious little accountability. We need to begin talking about experience--or at least trying to do so. It takes a certain discipline to be articulate, even if we're already blessed with some talent in that direction. My point is that there's bloody little discipline in that direction--forget the lack of talent. It's time to get off the phoo-phoo train and begin seriously inquiring what track we're on. I think one way to do that--the most honest way--is to begin at the level of experience, and build on that. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Area: MagickNet To: The Grey man 2 Oct 92 01:20:00 Subject: DISCUSSION UpdReq > What!?! From what source do you get this? While there has been some > discussion over the years about the possibility of the word "wicce" > being > the root word for witch, I have never recently heard anyone seriously > claim that Wicca was the name of an ancient religion. There is just no > evidence for it. As to Wicca being an ancient Anglo-Saxon religion, I > would direct you to Ray Buckland's book on Seax-Wicca. He explains > quite > clearly that the reason he invented the religion (and he makes no bones > whatsoever about having created it himself) was that he felt a personal > need for Saxon imagery in Wicca and that there was *absolutely no > evidence* for a Saxon witch cult comparable to Wicca. Of course, Buckland buggered the whole job of it. While elements of it are ok (most of them Generic Wicca (tm)), his choice of a god and goddess are exceedingly unsubstantiated historically (and downright stupid in my opinion) and I have yet to figure out where he got the crap that he calls "runes" in his book. Blah blah blah. Wassail, Grendel 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: The Wizard Area: MagickNet To: Windwolf 4 Oct 92 00:44:10 Subject: LOCAL COVEN? UpdReq I have been a solo Wican from the getgo. The only guidelines I've had are from books like Cunningham and Buckland. the only other guidance has been inner feeling. I am at a point where my development feels stuck. Type??? not sure. 93 BB T Wiz 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Windwolf Area: MagickNet To: The Wizard 4 Oct 92 09:09:00 Subject: LOCAL COVEN? UpdReq *** Quoting The Wizard to Windwolf dated 10-04-92 *** > I have been a solo Wican from the getgo. The only guidelines I've had > are from books like Cunningham and Buckland. the only other guidance > has been inner feeling. > I am at a point where my development feels stuck. Type??? not sure. Given the above... that's all you need! But perhaps you'd want a greoup experience, no? -WindWolf- ps. Which part of Jersey are you located? We're up here in Morristown. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718