From: Shadow Walker Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 94 01:43:00 Subject: Re: enochian 101 UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. SW> How is this any "safer"? I would think that Grant is dealing SW> ultimately with the same forces (those within) BUT with SW> different terminology and view. CP> CP> I disagree that they are the same forces. _Strongly_. Sorry, but CP> there are BIG differences for most people between Angels and elemental CP> forces of divine origin, and demonic, chthonic, forces that either CP> represent "Evil" or those parts of our subconscious that we have CP> packed away as too hard to deal with (depending on one's p.o.v.). CP> It makes no difference if different people define those terms (angel, CP> divine, evil, demon, etc.) in different ways: the results are the same CP> for almost all of us, _expecially_ for those new to this kind of work. CP> (We were talking about the possible dangers for beginners, remember.) CP> That is, we generally have some notion of the difference between that CP> which we see as benign, and that which we see as either malign or CP> repressed. I agree that on the surface of things there appears to be a great difference between "angelic" and "demonic" forces. And if you subscribe to the more judeo-christian p.o.v. of "good" and "evil" then for you this must be so. But as a magician I ask that you open your mind to the possibility that all is one and that the "demonic" is another angle of the angelic. The judeo-christian holy books in fact identifies the "demons" as "fallen angels". They maintain their angelic qualities or their angelness but are now of a different order. In my experience whenever invoking any force it's opposite rises to meet it. (see book of thoth ATU X ) As far as beginners (we are all beginners) They should be aware of the possibilities at the outset. At least as much as possible a beginner should know that his/her limits will be tested and their views on a very basic level will be challenged and very likely change (often). CP> Hey, Az0th, what's your 93 cents on all this? CP> Love is the law, love under will. CP> - Christeos Pir CP> CP> ... my gifts exceed the olive and the horse. CP> -!- Blue Wave/Max v2.12 CP> ! Origin: The Arena of Anon * Herndon, Virginia * (703) 904-9669 CP> (666:401/11) ... Sorry, the Dog ate my Blue Wave packet. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Shadow Walker Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 14 Aug 94 01:44:00 Subject: Re: enochian 101 UpdReq JN> As for banishings as a general practice, my personal feeling is JN> that JN> the concept is a bit oxymoronic. I perceive myself as being thoroughly JN> and irrevocably connected to the rest of the universe; trying to put JN> up a wall between my "self" and the rest of it seems about as JN> practicable as putting one between my sense of humor and my sense of JN> irony. SW> Maybe not a wall but the focusing of a lens. JN> I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I don't like the idea of putting up walls either. When establlishing my circle and doing banishings I some times visualize the circle to be a lens and the banishing is cleaning and focusing that lens to channel the specific force or rays wanted . SW> I agree!!! But there is something very pure about Enochian. So SW> much so that a person need not have any conscious knowledge of SW> magick or ritual to have the other than conscious mind to SW> sieze upon these symbols SW> and react to the confusion of the exposed individual. JN> Again, I don't see this as a specifically Enochian problem. The first JN> effect of _any_ strong inflow of magickal energy is to stir up the JN> preconscious parts of the being, to break up any incompatible forms JN> and energy-complexes existing there, and to bring the resulting JN> detritus to the surface. You can't get away from this effect; it's JN> intrinsic to the process of initiation. I also do not see this as specifically an Enochian problem either; but I do see that Enochian has a higher unconscious recognition rate than many other forms. JN> And having that crap pop up JN> and bite you is the best motivation there is for getting rid of it. JN> Since such events seem to only rarely produce permanent injuries, JN> perhaps its better that the magician experience it as early as JN> possible. I strongly disagree with you here. Having worked as a mental health care- giver I have seen too many people left as empty shells as a result of "magickal experimentation" and mostly with crap I might add. Stuff you wouldn't think would have any power at all. ... Unzip, expand, inflate, explode... What pervert came up with this? ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Shadow Walker Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 14 Aug 94 01:44:00 Subject: Re: enochian 101 UpdReq ... CP> It is my experience that Enochian falls into the former CP> category. It is my _understanding_ (because I have only CP> read Grant's stuff, and not worked with it) that his stuff CP> falls into the latter category. CP> Hey, Az0th, what's your 93 cents on all this? Az> (Crawling out of the woodwork......) Huh? Oh! Agree! Az> And, as you say, _Strongly_. Although I think that it's generally true Az> that any given individual is unlikely to bite off more than Az> s/he can actually chew, magickally speaking, with _any_ given Az> technique, I think that it's also very likely that an Az> individual subscribed to Grant's material and approach is Az> _looking_ for trouble, _looking_ for something that violates Az> boundaries and normative thinking, and is already well gone on Az> a course that will probably result in major psychic upheaval. I Az> believe, personally, that for at least some such folks, this is Az> fine and even necessary, and if dangerous is only dangerous to Az> the individual, and that most will survive and be all the much Az> better for the experiences. what is the point of the work if not to push boundries and disrupt normative thinking (see book of thoth ATU XVI). Making way for new evolutionary processes. ... Also his body shook and staggered with the burden of that bliss ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 15 Aug 94 01:33:00 Subject: Question UpdReq 93- JN> Heehee. Now you know why I refuse to be a teacher -- people JN> hate it when JN> you say "I don't know". On the other hand, it's a great reminder to chuck the ego-inflation that it tempts. but no, I don't get into the teacher role either, except for limited periods of time ("Sure, I'll show you how to check your oil") JN> Haw -- talk about synchronicities! I'm listening to my Walkman, JN> and at JN> the moment I started reading your post, the station started JN> playing an JN> old Gershwin tune -- "It Ain't Necessarily So". Check out the JN> lyrics to JN> see how apropos it is. Ha! JN> (I suspect you DO know what to tell them -- you just want to JN> pass the JN> buck to someone far enough away to avoid the unpleasant JN> repercussions of JN> a correct-but-unsatisfying answer! Well, I'm game... it's a JN> dull JN> afternoon here, anyway.) LOL! Yeah, actually, this came up almost a year ago, and it recently occured to me to mention it to you. Actually, the answer I offered was much along the lines of your (quite excellent) response. It's sure a funny coincidence, though- 10 letters in a row! Ah well... JN> So, "What does it all mean, Mr. Natural?" The answer is "I give up, what?" 93/93- -Ar Aakhu-t bb125@scn.org S S S S . { , /| | | == ,===+===. `.`,-.',' -+ | L) || H ~~((O))~~ ----+---- |===][===| H ,',`-'.`. | | /` || H / } \ L) | \) == 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718