From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Fir & Christeos Pir 24 Jul 94 15:41:00 Subject: charts UpdReq Hi, folks! Just a clarification, since nobody's noticed it yet: On the chart mentioned variously as coming from Ayton and from Turner's book (it's actually Dee's own calculation of his chart) the house cusps you had listed were off by one house. The 3 degree Capricorn listed as the ascendant is actually the _second_ house cusp. The correct ascendant is 4 Sagittarius, with a 2 Libra midheaven. This gives essentially the same chart as the others that used 4:11 pm local mean time as the birth time. (I don't know how Dee figured the intermediate house cusps -- they don't match any of the 15 systems my software will do. Perhaps he had his own system.) The custom in drawing those old-fashioned square charts was that the triangles pointing outwards to the edges of the square are the angular houses, with the other houses following in the usual order. The cusp of each house is written on the clockwise-facing edge of the triangle. Modern wheel charts are much easier to read, arent they? If anybody's interested, here's my take on Kelly's chart: Edward Kelly DOB 8/1/1555 Wigmore, Worcester, England 52N15 02W20 (ref. London Times Atlas) 11:46am LMT Sun 17 Leo 45 Juno 16 Cap 47 Rx Moon 29 Cap 56 Ceres 25 Aqu 41 Rx Mer 11 Vir 39 Pallas 04 Pis 13 Rx Ven 13 Can 35 Vesta 11 Gem 51 Mars 24 Lib 09 Jup 28 Lib 26 Sat 11 Ari 11 Rx Ura 24 Lib 20 Nep 19 Tau 16 Plu 06 Pis 56 Rx Asc 00 Sco 03 2nd 26 Sco 30 3rd 25 Sag 41 4th 10 Aqu 45 5th 07 Pis 06 6th 03 Ari 36 7th 00 Tau 03 8th 26 Tau 30 9th 25 Gem 41 Mid 10 Leo 45 11th 07 Vir 06 12th 03 Lib 36 ... Just a pothole on the information superhighway... ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 25 Jul 94 17:41:08 Subject: charts UpdReq -=> Josh Norton sent a message to Fir & Christeos Pir on 24 Jul 94 15:41:00 <=- -=> Re: charts <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. JN> On the chart mentioned variously as coming from Ayton and from JN> Turner's book (it's actually Dee's own calculation of his chart) the JN> house cusps you had listed were off by one house. The 3 degree JN> Capricorn listed as the ascendant is actually the _second_ house cusp. JN> The correct ascendant is 4 Sagittarius, with a 2 Libra midheaven. This JN> gives essentially the same chart as the others that used 4:11 pm local JN> mean time as the birth time. Aha, to coin a phrase. Thanks for catching that. JN> (I don't know how Dee figured the intermediate house cusps -- they JN> don't match any of the 15 systems my software will do. Perhaps he had JN> his own system.) I dunno either... I can't even get my programs to give the same results for the same data and house system! [printing out body of your message for perusal...] Love is the law, love under will. - CP ... there shall ye meet with Me. 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Witchchild 22 Jul 94 16:40:00 Subject: Enochian UpdReq Thus said Witchchild to All concerning Enochian: Wi> I am curious as to what exactly Enochian means or is. Upon looking at Wi> the first entries in this echo, I thought it may simply mean, Wi> magic and ritual without instructions. And I thought, This Wi> is what I do naturally, but after the other three letters, Wi> I couldnt anymore think that Enochian was simply freestyle Wi> practice. So, as I am learning still, I would like to ask Wi> any tuition on definintion, description, example, or Wi> recipes you would care to give. I am very grateful of you Wi> all. Greetings and welcome! Enochian magick is based on the work of Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelly circa 1580 A.D. Dee was interested in obtaining knowledge of "radical truths" by invoking Christian and Hebrew angels. Kelly served as his scryer. The details of their work are complex and partially unknown, but through their work they received a series of invocations in an unknown language, and a set of tablets -- somewhat like giant-sized magick squares -- from which divine and angelic names of various types could be derived. You can find the essentials of the system in _Elizabethan_Magick_ by Robert Turner (Element Books, Longmead U.K, ISBN 1-85230-083-3) The fascination of the system is that it is both powerful and mysterious. Practically anybody can get some sort of effect from using these invocations, and the energies they produce touch ourselves and the universe at profound levels. But the invocations (known as "Calls") and the Tablets exist in an information vacuum; very little coherent was ever said about how to use the Calls in practice, or about the nature of the powers and beings who can be invoked. There is no particular ethical, religious or moral accompaniment to them, save for a very superficial Judaeo-Christian symbolism. And unlike most other magickal systems, there was no system of correspondences provided by which students might gain an intellectual or intuitive base for their use of it. The Calls imply a metaphysic, but it is rather vaguely delineated. It may be that no completely reliable symbolism is possible, though several people -- myself among them -- have made systems the work well enough in practice. There is a definite transcendental component to the enochian powers, and no finite system of symbolism and meaning can entirely contain them. This being the case, magicians who use the Enochian magick have to give greater attention to the powers as things-in-themselves, apart from any interpretive system, and develop a more individual and personalized relationship with them than would be the case with, e.g., a purely cabalistic system of magick. This is a good thing, IMO, as people thereby get out of it results suited to their own nature, interests, and talents. I'm sure that others here will be glad to give you their own view of the matter. Read on, and enjoy! --Josh ... Its the punetentiary for you, Witchchild ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718 From: Ar Aakhu-t Area: ENOCHIAN To: Desert Boy 25 Jul 94 09:23:02 Subject: Looking for training UpdReq 93- DB> Currently I am under the tutioral of another and am looking DB> also to aquire more skill. I'm interested in learning any At the risk of an obvious plug :) I'd suggest you might consider looking into O.T.O.. As a fraternal magical order, it is among other things a great way to meet many people with a great deal of experience in a variety of systems and traditions. Because O.T.O. is not in itself a 'teaching order' in the sense that, say, T.O.T. or C.O.T. are, it can offer contact with a wide variety of resources beyond the Order itself. If you'd like, I'll give you an address for the nearest O.T.O. body, also you might ask on the 'Thelema' echo (where this discussion is more topical than here in Enochian) where there are a number of O.T.O. members other than myself, where you can get second opinions. Hope this helps! 93/93 /\ . . \./ \,/ -AR AAKHU-T X >< X /'\ /`\ horizon@fry.halcyon.com \/ 201434369420143436942014343694201434369420143436942014343694718