From: Azoth Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 16 Aug 93 21:01:08 Subject: Vive la Difference UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. As if all those other differences weren't enough: This table summarizes the differences that I've found between several published tables of the Governors of the Aethyrs, all supposedly based on Dee's "Book of Knowledge, Help and Earthly Victory" as recorded in Sloane 3191. Some of the deviations appear to be simple typos, resulting in one letter too many or too few, and are marked with '~'. Those which deviate from the published consensus are marked with '*'. Presented here as well are the Governors' names derived from the same Great Table used by Dee to generate other Angelic names in Sloane 3191, in the 'Book of Supplications and Invocations,' along with the correspondant differing names in the published sources. Of these, the names which additionally match those given in Chanokh are marked with a '+', and those which match the names conformed by Denning and Phillips to the Tabula Recensa, in _Mysteria Magica_, are marked with a '-'. Where the 3 published sources are consistent, only Turner is noted. ========================================================== Gov. Turner James Chanokh Derived ========================================================== 4 Doagnis Dongnis 6 Dialiva ~Dialioai Dialiva Dialoia - 10 Thotanp Thotanp Thotanf* 11 Axziarg Axxiarg 19 Opmacas Opmacas Obmacas* 32 Vsnarda Vsnarda Vanarda* 36 Ambriol Ambriol Ambrial* 42 Ooanamb Voanamb 43 Tahando Tahando Tahamdo* Tohamdo+ - 44 Nociabi Notiabi 45 Tastoxo Tastozo 46 Cucarpt Cucarpt Cocarpt* Cucnrpt 47 ~Luacon Lauacon Lanacon Lauacon - 50 Aydropt Avdropt* Aydropt 56 Abaiond Abaiond Abriond* Abriond+ - 61 Chirspa Chirspa Chirzpa* Chirzpa+ - 63 Vixpadg* Vixpalg Vixpalg Vixpalg+ - 64 Ozidaia Osidaia 65 Paraoan Paoaoan 66 Calzidg* Calzirg Calzirg Calzirg+ - 67 Ronoamb* Ronoomb Ronoomb Ronoomb+ - 70 Orcanir Orcanir Orcamir* Orancir 71 Chialps Chaslpo 78 Bazchim Bazchlm 81 ~Orpamb Orpanib Orpanib Crpanib 82 Labnixp Pabnixp 83 Focisni Pocisni* Focisni Pocisni - 87 Gomziam Gmtziam 88 Taoagla Taoagla Taongla* Taaogba 91 Dazinal Doxinal Dozinal Doxmael - ========================================================== 30 2 3 1 2 10 6 10 ========================================================== There are 19 names which differ between these published sources, of which the Geoffrey James deviates least from this small consensus. None of these sources agree on the 91st Governor's name. There are, in addition, two evident typos in Turner, and 1 in James. Of the 30 names under consideration, 5 agree between the consensus and those from the derived Table. There are 18 names produced from the derived Table which disagree with all published sources (on 11 of which the published sources are unanimous), 4 more which disagree with the consensus (of which 3 agree with Chanokh and the other with James), 3 more which agree with the consensus while disagreeing with Turner, and 1 which agrees with James where Turner contains a typo. 10 of these names agree with those produced from the Tabula Recensa, 13 disagree, and the 2 remaining differ at least from the typos. It should at least be plain from this that no commonly available sourcebook can be trusted to be free from error. Caveat Magus! "The truth of it shall be found in practice." Love is the law, love under will. Az0th 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Fir 11 Aug 93 11:56:12 Subject: Re: Dee's and Kelly's Charts UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 10 Aug 93 08:20:00, Fir wrote: F> Paul Hume didn't respond to my question so if you've got F> Kelly's chart somewhere, I'd be interested. I will have to see if I can pull it up from somewhere. I don't think that I have it, personally, however, I am quite confident that one does exist somewhere. I shall try to see if I can dig up the pertinent information in the very least. F> Also did you notice that there's a mistake in Dee's chart F> in Elizabethan Magic. The 3rd and 9th house cusps don't F> match up. That's probably 2 degrees Aries on the 3rd. No, I did not notice this...I guess I shall have to take another look at his chart. I'll get back with you later, Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: All 14 Aug 93 20:52:06 Subject: Lesser Angle attribs. UpdReq Greetings, All! Noticed the recent discussions concerning the Tabula Recensa, and wanted to hear what the scholars here think about a particular problem related to the switch in tablet positions within the Great Table. To wit: Were the elemental attributes of the Lesser Angles supposed to change to match the new positions of the Tablets? The original Great Table had the Earth Tablet in the northeast, Water in the southeast, and Fire in the southwest. The Lesser Angles tablet held the same attributes based on their relative positions within each tablet. In the Tabula Recensa, they were switch so that Earth was southwest, Fire southeast, and Water in the northeast. Was it intended that the southwest Lesser Angle afterwards be considered as Earth instead of Fire, etc.? From Dee's grimoire it's obvious that he didn't think so. What do y'all think? ... I think we're all Bozo's on this bus. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Commander Barbarella Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 93 12:28:00 Subject: Re: 'The Enochian Workbook' UpdReq Christeos Pir has been charged with the crime of consorting with Commander Barbarella. The evidence: CP> Sure, I guess. Depends on whether you're interested in CP> experimenting CP> with that system, or just in striking out on your own. Both are CP> valid, CP> and both can give good results, depending on the magician. CP> CP> But if you're gonna work with the Enochian system, I suggest CP> doing it CP> in the Enochian language, simply because just about everyone CP> who's CP> tried it both ways says it works better. You know, the proof of CP> the CP> pudding and all that... If you don't want to do it that way, I'd CP> be the CP> last person to tell you otherwise. It's not that there's some CP> esoteric CP> law, or cosmic "Because I say so" going on, it just seems to work CP> better. CP> CP> Love is the law, love under will. CP> CP> - Christeos Pir I'll concede the point on tried and true rituals working better, I was just talking about a neophyte just getting started, which was WHY the Workbook in the first place. Sometimes, I think, we forget just what we didn't know when we started and how hard it was to find ANYTHING to help. Barb 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Rose Dawn Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 14 Aug 93 07:36:40 Subject: Re: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. > Yeah, he took a lot of Poetic License with things. Fools rush in... > > (Hey, sounds like the name of a bar: the Fool's Rush Inn!) It *is* a bar! Next time you're on the Holy Coast, stop on by to the Fools Rush Inn. The Poetic License is hanging on the wall next to the beer and foaming wine license. Enochian Spoken Here. Put a quarter in the juke, kick back and listen to "The Angels Wanna Wear My Red Shoes." Y'all come back now, hear? 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 15 Aug 93 20:29:00 Subject: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq > CP> Heard that. I just got my copy of "True and Faithful Relation..." > CP> (turning 40 has _some_ rewards after all), so I'll be doing some more > CP> research. Was this book not available for a long time or something? > It was published in a small edition by Askin some twenty years ago,and I > think possibly by one other in Scotland in a very small printing,but I > think that's about it. It is in print. The store I work at stocks it and is able to get it in regularily. It is not cheap though. Something like $75. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 15 Aug 93 20:32:00 Subject: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq > I dunno. I've got copies of the "coloring book" and Paul's "lego" > stuff. The big tablets will be about 2'x3' and the little ones 8 1/2 by > 11 inches. I'm gonna go with liquid acrylics, though... the hell with > markers. AND tube paints. Whose "lego" stuff? Sounds interesting. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 15 Aug 93 08:31:00 Subject: Whirlpools, Vortexes UpdReq I'm still reading the Planetary Seniors of Earth working. I read Venus Friday night and Saturn Saturday night. I started reading Mercury but the phone kept ringing. I meant to wait until I finished reading the entire file and then post you a letter. However, here's a small question. In Saturn while explaining the symbolism of Cancer there is mention of The Whirlpool is a shell-full of air within the water, again relating back to the Tarot card. My question is which card? The only previous mention of Tarot cards that I saw were the Star in reference to Nuit; and the Chariot being drawn by elemental sphinxes in reference to a modern day car. Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 15 Aug 93 08:36:00 Subject: Order of the Elements UpdReq If you were to set out to do the elemental tablets, one by one, would you do them in the Enochian order of Fire, Earth, Water, and Air, or would you do them in the order or Earth, Air, Water, and Fire? Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Crat Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 17 Aug 93 07:07:10 Subject: Burning computer disks UpdReq -=> Quoting Mark O. Garrison to Azoth <=- A> And much harder to burn than the original! };-] MOG> Hopefully! Though, I have heard rumours that there are a few MOG> rare occurences of Xtians who daring enough to attempt to learn MOG> computers (you know that computers are the tool of Satan! and MOG> heaven knows that you have to be intelligent to understand them...and MOG> you know that intelligence is of Satan! ), and if they are some MOG> how, against the odds, able to learn to program, it wouldn't be that MOG> difficult to upload a 'nasty' little virus...thusly burning the MOG> library in an altogether different (though just as effective) way... MOG> Talk to you later, please note that with the reading of this message an engram has been passed to you. Not only will this replace the your previous "knowledge" with the appropriate Pauline scriptures, but it will transform your hard disk files into the writings of Billy Graham. Thus proving that prayer has more efficacy than viruses. . A little bashing is a dangerous thing. ... Evangelists do more than lay people 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 17 Aug 93 18:16:08 Subject: Vis la Difference UpdReq Hi, Chris - Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Some nasty bugs slipt into that last post of mine, mostly the result of trying to merge three different sets of notes and procedures. Bleccch. I just redid the work, using the computer properly, with these results (slightly different!) When I get a chance, I'll be updating my name extraction software to deal with the governors and cacodaemons, and my Table display software to handle the different versions and the sigilli. It looks like there's plenty of room for improvement in the published sources.... Bottom line is still: Caveat Magus! ***** The purpose of this exercise is to evaluate the impact of the Tabula recensa on the system of Governmental names derived from the Enochian Great Table using the table of sigils as an overlay and guide. At the outset, a variety of discrepencies between the several published sources of the Governmental names became apparent. Many differences could be accounted for by noting evident misprints and variant readings of single letters or letter combinations difficult to distinguish in the source manuscripts in the Sloane collection. To better gauge the effects of the changes implemented in the Tabula Recensa, several steps have been taken to arrive at a consensus between published sources: 1) The names derived from the use of the Sigils on the Tablula Recensa were typed in and proofed against those similarly derived by Denning/Phillips in _Mysteria Magica_. 2) The names derived from the use of the Sigils on the Great Table derived in an earlier exercise to recreate the Table used by Dee to produce the 'Book of Suplications and Invocations' were typed into another file. 3) Similarly, names published in Robert Turner's _Elizabethan Magic_, Geoffrey James' _Enochian Evocation_, and Aleister Crowley's _Liber Chanokh_ were entered into separate files. 4) Using 'diff', the differences between the Recensa names and each of the other versions were recorded and tabulated. NOTE: In the table following, evident misprints are indicated by prefixing a '~' to the name; deviance from the consensus is indicated by postfixing a '*', and the several variations in James which happen to agree both with the Recensa names and those from the derived Table are indicated with a '+'. Where the name from the derived Table and the name from the Tabula Recensa agree, only that from the Recensa is given. ========================================================= Gov Recensa Turner James Chanokh Derived ========================================================= 4 dongnis* doAgnis doAgnis doAgnis doAgnis 6 dialoia* dialIVa ~dialIOAI dialIVa 10 thotanp thotanp thotanp thotanF* 11 axxiarg* axZiarg axZiarg axZiarg axZiarg 19 opmacas opmacas opmacas oBmacas* 32 vsnarda vsnarda vsnarda vAnarda* 36 ambriol ambriol ambriol ambriAl* 42 voanamb* Ooanamb Ooanamb Ooanamb Ooanamb 43 tahamdo tahaNdo tahamdo+ tahaNdo 44 notiabi* noCiabi noCiabi noCiabi noCiabi 45 tastozo* tastoXo tastoXo tastoXo tastoXo 46 cucnrpt* cucArpt cucArpt cucArpt cucArpt 47 lauacon ~luacon lauacon+ laNacon 50 abriond abAiond abriond+ abAiond 56 aydropt aydropt aVdropt* aydropt 61 chirzpa chirSpa chirzpa+ chirSpa 63 vixpalg vixpaDg* vixpalg vixpalg 64 osidaia* oZidaia oZidaia oZidaia oZidaia 65 paoaoan* paRaoan paRaoan paRaoan 66 calzirg calziDg* calzirg calzirg 67 ronoomb ronoAmb ronoomb+ ronoAmb 70 orancir* orCANir orCANir orCAMir* orCANir 71 chaslpo* chIAlpS chIAlpS chIAlpS chIAlpS 78 lazhiim* BazCHim BazCHim BazCHim BazCHlm* 81 crpanib* ~OrpaMb Orpanib ~OrpaMb Orpanib 82 pabnixp* Labnixp Labnixp Labnixp Labnixp 83 pocisni Focisni pocisni+ Focisni 87 gmtziam* gOMziam gOMziam gOMziam gOMziam 88 taaogba* taaogLa taaogLa taONgLa* taaogLa 91 doxmael* dAZINAl doxINAl doZINAl ========================================================= 30 17 2 2 1 7 1 6 14 ========================================================= If the single deviances from consensus are corrected, including 4 of Chanokh, 1 of James and 2 of Turner, and further, the 6 changes indicated for conforming Turner and Chanokh to the James/Recensa/derived, and the 3 remaining changes to Turner/James/Chanokh to conform to the Recensa/derived (including 1 misprint, 1 total disagreement, and 1 unanimous agreement composed of letters not used in the sigils) are included, we have: ========================================================= Gov Recensa Turner James Chanokh Derived ========================================================= 4 dongnis* doAgnis doAgnis doAgnis doAgnis 11 axxiarg* axZiarg axZiarg axZiarg axZiarg 42 voanamb* Ooanamb Ooanamb Ooanamb Ooanamb 44 notiabi* noCiabi noCiabi noCiabi noCiabi 45 tastozo* tastoXo tastoXo tastoXo tastoXo 46 cucnrpt* cucArpt cucArpt cucArpt cucArpt 64 osidaia* oZidaia oZidaia oZidaia oZidaia 70 orancir* orCANir orCANir orCAMir* orCANir 71 chaslpo* chIAlpS chIAlpS chIAlpS chIAlpS 78 lazhiim* BazCHim BazCHim BazCHim BazCHlm* 81 crpanib* ~OrpaMb Orpanib ~OrpaMb Orpanib 82 pabnixp* Labnixp Labnixp Labnixp Labnixp 87 gmtziam* gOMziam gOMziam gOMziam gOMziam 88 taaogba* taaogLa taaogLa taONgLa* taaogLa ========================================================= We are left with 2 changes to correct typos in Turner and Chanokh, 2 changes to conform Chanokh, and one change to conform Turner/James/Chanokh to the derived table. In summary: Of the 91 Governors' names, 30 differ between the various versions and published sources. 16 edited names (of which 15 involve the change of a single character) produce unanimity with the Recensa, and disappear. 5 edited names (3 of which are single-character, and 2 the replacement of a single erronsous character with 2) produce unanimity except with the Recensa. After all this, we are left with 14 inescapable changes introduced by the Tabula Recensa into the system of names of Governors derived from the Enochian Great Table. Coincidentally, it is now possible, by working backward from the names given in the _Mysteria Magica_, to arrive at a consistent set of names appropriate to the Table used to generate the Angelic names and words of Power in the 'Book of Supplications and Invocations'. Love is the law, love under will. Az0th 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 17 Aug 93 21:32:20 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq -=> Mark O. Garrison sent a message to Christeos Pir on Sat 14 Aug 93 4:15 <=- -=> Re: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. CP> Well, as I said, it's not Gematria as I'm used to thinking of it, MOG> of curiousity though, from whence did you learn Gematria? And secondly Self-taught, basically, from the usual GD and AC texts, and lots of playing around with it. MOG> what do you consider Gematria?...I cannot think, at the moment, of any MOG> other conceptualization of what you could have possibly learned as MOG> Gematria other than what was listed above... My objection was not to: MOG> Exactly! Isn't that the idea in Gematria...to convey the MOG> correspondance of ideas through a form of cosmological symbolism (the MOG> AlephBeth and it's numerations...)? But to: MOG> If the words "horse" and "candle" MOG> in regular gematria (by the letter method) add up to the same number, Where we were discussing the _frequency_ rather than the enumeration. MOG> There were a couple of passages from Dee's workings that MOG> insinuated or mentioned there being a numeration...I will see if I can MOG> dig out some of my notes for you, for supporting defense... S'OK... I'm reading Causabon right now, and will no doubt run across it in due course. MOG> folly. However, remember, the Fool is always the start and ending to MOG> every journey... CP> Before enlightenment, gathering wood and hauling water. CP> After enlightment, gathering wood and hauling water. MOG> But after enlightenment, do we regard this act as simply MOG> gathering wood and hauling water, or something much more profound? :) Can't answer for anyone else, but my experience says... Both! ;-) CP> (But "what wood, what water!") MOG> The wood and water that "IS" and "IS NOT" ;) ;) Well, yeah, but that wasn't a question but an exclamation (read it again), as well as a play on Crowley's Star-Sponge Vision: "Nothingness with Twinkles... But what twinkles!" MOG> ?????QVIF?????? I'm sorry that I am so blind to the obvious MOG> sometimes, but what exactly is QVIF? :) "Quod Volet, Ille Facit!" "Whatsoever thou Wilst, That Do!" or "Do What Thou Wilt!" MOG> not reaching at all, it is actually quite accepted in the field of MOG> Paleography that the Ashuri AlephBeth was indeed designed for MOG> Esoteric-Spritual Purposes. They had two other written AlephBeths for . . . Huh! Well thanks, I had never heard that before, and didn't realize there was more to it. I'll have to look into the books you mentioned. MOG> I even have several articles on the MOG> subject of the origins and purpose of the Hebraic language from MOG> BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGICAL REVIEW, if you are interested. If you get a round tuit... MOG> No, the name Occam does not ring familiar. Who was s/he? "Occam's Razor" is a maxim stating that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity. The usual use of the term is best paraphrased as meaning that, when confronted with a number of possible explanations one should choose the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions. MOG> the Torah, you are overlooking the possibility that it too is written MOG> with a pre-existing Gematria and thusly with this MOG> "cosmological/mathematical symbolism." Surely, you know that the Torah Yes, I know there's a lot of Qabalah all through the Pentateuch -- I wasn't questioning that part. MOG> Gee, the Alexandrian Library itself was only burnt MOG> down five times! (Once by Barbarians, once by the Babylonians--or was MOG> it the Arabs--I don't remember, once on accident by the Romans, and MOG> twice by the Xtians-- The Templars, probably! ;-) MOG> AH-HA! I knew it! ;) ;) Your silence speaks louder than words! MOG> ;) ;) Your refusal to confess to membership only goes to prove your MOG> involvement! ;) ;) I knew it! You have been sent to spy on me, haven't MOG> you! You don't need to answer, I know you are...but I alone MOG> have control over the Orbital Mind Lasers, you will never take me MOG> alive! :) :) Just joking...:) :) Don't be too sure... (dum da dum dum... dum da dum dum DUM!!!) Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 17 Aug 93 21:37:30 Subject: Vive la Difference UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Christeos Pir on 16 Aug 93 21:01:04 <=- -=> Re: Vive la Difference <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Az> This table summarizes the differences that I've found between several Thanks... it'll be some time for me to take it all in... Have you compared it to the Causabon? Az> It should at least be plain from this that no commonly Az> available sourcebook can be trusted to be free from Az> error. Az> Caveat Magus! "The truth of it shall be found in practice." Right you are... and as you've pointed out (take a look at the last para of the preface of my essay when you get it), it seems to matter little to Them. Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... nor unto the Virgin her daughter nor unto Chaos her lawful Lord; 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718