From: Christeos Pir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 9 Aug 93 21:16:10 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Christeos Pir on 08 Aug 93 20:15:22 <=- -=> Re: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA <=- Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Az> Well, my 'reference' set of Tablets are those of the Recensa Now, let me get this straight... you don't buy Kelley's story behind the miraculous appearance of the Recension, but you use 'em for reference anyway? And what about this business of the names of the Angels not jiving with the Recensa? I _really_ don't think I'm being anal on this one -for once- coz it seems to me that it really does make a difference whether the revised version comes from the Angels or from Kelley. Az> colored according to the guidelines in Chanokh, Mathers again... how _is_ the Beave these days? Love is the law, love under will. - Christeos Pir ... she hath been scourged with many rods. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Azoth Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 10 Aug 93 19:12:22 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq Hi, Chris! Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. Az> Well, my 'reference' set of Tablets are those of the Recensa CP> Now, let me get this straight... you don't buy Kelley's story behind CP> the miraculous appearance of the Recension, but you use 'em for CP> reference anyway? Since the actual differences between the two sets of Tablets,exclusive of their rearrangement in the Great Table, amounts to two (2) count'm two letters (both little b's and quite possibly just transcription errors in the original), I'm not inclined to worry overmuch. It'll have to do until I can sort out all the other nit-picky instructions in Dee's diaries about other corrections, if I ever do. };-] CP> And what about this business of the names of the Angels not jiving CP> with the Recensa? That's mostly the result of the rearrangement, and only really screws up some of the God-names that govern the angels whose names are found above the dependent crosses, and the demonic names. These are the changes I'd rather not make, as the angel's approval of the initial arrangement is emphatic and explicit. As for the letters,there's one difference that slightly changes a Senior's name, and another that changes the name of a lesser angel. That's about it, I think (there's got to be an effect on one or two of the Governors names, though; I haven't worked it out yet.) This all seems fairly minor, when I compare it to my own transcription errors in just typing in the Tablets for the software I did to extract the names (4 errored letters; pitiful.) CP> I _really_ don't think I'm being anal on this one -for once- coz it CP> seems to me that it really does make a difference whether the revised CP> version comes from the Angels or from Kelley. I think it's probably safest to try to factor in _both_ sources,and admit that either could make a mistake (most of theose angelic prophecies, for example, didn't pan out; some did.) Az> colored according to the guidelines in Chanokh, CP> Mathers again... how _is_ the Beave these days? Yup, Mathers again. All that elemental and sub-elemental and planetary and sephirotic attribution and pyramids and coloring are his baby, of which Chanokh is a great summary, with only a couple of serious deviances, so far as I know (like the order of assignment of the sephira to the letters of the dependent crosses.) It's my reference set because it's the only one with major complexities in two dimensions. Josh's work takes it into 3 or more, but we sort of need an Enochian erector set to model it! Love is the law, love under will. Az0th 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Mark O. Garrison 10 Aug 93 08:20:00 Subject: Dee's and Kelly's Charts UpdReq Paul Hume didn't respond to my question so if you've got Kelly's chart somewhere, I'd be interested. Also did you notice that there's a mistake in Dee's chart in Elizabethan Magic. The 3rd and 9th house cusps don't match up. That's probably 2 degrees Aries on the 3rd. Blessings, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 10 Aug 93 14:07:00 Subject: Enochian and qbl UpdReq JN> I have, a couple of times. The response was that the question was JN> essentially meaningless in the context of my existence. Not very JN> helpful, eh? CP> ROFL! The Left Hand of Darkness, eh? (What's the point of getting an CP> accurate answer to an erroneous or meaningless question?) Yeah. Sometimes I get the impression that the very fact that we have bodies and are more or less tied to their neurological structure makes us incapable of asking the right questions. Arrrr... ... A little fermented curd will do the trick ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 10 Aug 93 14:56:02 Subject: Comselha UpdReq CP> 'Scuse the dumb questions, BTW: I wrote that message right before CP> finding some of the answers looking back through some of your CP> material, including the MS of "Son of..." which I'm reading presently. I didn't find them dumb, though I did wonder if you'd read the manuscript yet. CP> Hehe... yeah, it's all very well for some to say that it's necessary CP> to open up those black boxes and deal with the various bogeys within, CP> but there's a reason why we crammed 'em in there in the first place! CP> Sounds like yours are pretty well subdued (but don't forget that one CP> over in the corner, behind the stairwell... ). Yeah, I know whatcha mean... Seems to me that the job is never completely done. It's nearly impossible to totally disperse an unconscious complex. We can destroy the major connections, but all the little things that were tied into it peripherally still float around down in the sub-basement, and come to the surface under the right stimulus. Fortunately they're nowhere near as hard to deal with as the original problem, and often seem silly when exposed to the light of awareness. CP> Guess you didn't overstep by claiming MT, eh? Well, I haven't yet been struck by lightning, so maybe so. OTOH, the Karmic Kops may just be filling up their stone bucket, so they can throw the whole thing at me all at once! JN> "standard" Solar sequence. Each and every time, without exception, JN> they have used the precessional sequence which goes clockwise or JN> "backwards" around the circle. They have never explained why they do JN> this, and seem to think that that answer is self-evident, but their JN> consistency is a strong argument, IMM, towards following the sequence JN> they gave. CP> I don't have my astronomer's hat on this morning, but perhaps it's to CP> do with looking at things from "outside" in, instead from Earth out? Hmmm. Could be. If you follow the Bailey-esque "stanzas" in "The Zodiacal Round", it appears that they consider this a _creative_ sequence of the signs, from their god's viewpoint. They used zodiacal symbolism in the same way in plotting "The Book of the Seniors", which is essentially a creation-myth. Both of these work, as you say, from the outside inwards. JN> Golden Talisman Great Circle Grimoire JN> JN> E Water Air Air JN> S Earth Earth Earth JN> W Fire Fire Water JN> N Air Water Fire CP> This also made me think: perhaps we're asking the wrong question CP> again... knowing that our world is not flat, and isn't held up by CP> angels at each side, perhaps we should be thinking more in terms of CP> the physics that we now understand, rather than those of the middle CP> ages. This, obviously, brings us back to the CP> astronomical/astrological/ galactic perspective. Agreed. I look at the entire realm of the Enochian creation as being somehow "impaled" upon the equinox and solstice axes, with those axes being direct lines of communication from "outside" the realm to the center of the realm. Those axes are defined by the Earth's relative position in space, but that isn't a problem in the "spherical" view put forth in the "Son of..." papers. There have been many times when the angels have given me the impression that a similar set of axes exists for the solar system as a whole. I think -- but I'm not certain -- that they might be defined by the plane of Sol's rotation, and it's tilt with respect to the galactic center. The direction on that plane pointed towards the galactic center would be the solar equivalent of the summer solstice, thus defining one axis. A line at right angles to this axis in the same plane would be the equivalent of the equinoctial axis. (Obviously, "solstice" and "equinox" are complete misnomers in this context.) It is interesting to note that the solar system is "upside down" with respect to galactic rotation. That is, Sol's rotation and his planets' orbits are moving in the opposite direction from Sol's revolution around the galactic center. This means that from Sol's viewpoint, the position of the galactic center would appear to move backwards through the signs, in the same precessional order used by the angels. ... By God, for a moment there it all made sense. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 10 Aug 93 15:07:04 Subject: Comselha 2/2 UpdReq [continued from previous message] JN> I agree it's a bundle to take all at once. The final version will JN> probably chop it up into pieces that can be done in about 15-20 JN> minutes each without difficulty. I've been doing it right before I go JN> to bed at night, and leaving other work for earlier in the day and JN> evening. CP> And does it leave you relaxed and contemplative, energized, or ??? Often all three, if that's not a contradiction! The effect seems to be to relax me physically, but energize me mentally. If I go to bed immediately after doing it, then I usually fall into a state where my body is asleep but my mind is in some state in between waking and dreaming. Like that state sometimes produced by sex magick, where you get hypogogic visions much more intense that the usual falling-asleep images. If I don't go immediately to bed, my mind rises into an illuminated wide-awake state that can last for several hours. ... God created men because cucumbers can't lift boxes. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: Fir 10 Aug 93 15:26:06 Subject: Seniors of earth UpdReq Fi> Assuming you do your work within a circle, do you include Fi> your word processor in the circle? Fi> I never work in a protective circle. Doing so feels faintly ridiculous to me, since I am obviously (from my own perspective) _not_ separate from the rest of the universe. And why draw a line and say "Thou shalt not pass!" and then -- through an invocation -- invite something to pass the line? I'm not advocating this for others, mind you; I just don't see any point to it in my own situation. Astral monsters, "demons", etc. never bother me anyway; they simply can't tolerate the fact that I see them as hollow and unimportant. The way I do visions, I bring the appropriate astral environment to where I am, rather than traveling to where it is. Thus, when I change my physical position, the vision comes right along with me. ... Angels in front, creatures in back, saints in the middle. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Josh Norton Area: ENOCHIAN To: John Dee 10 Aug 93 22:23:08 Subject: Enochian UpdReq Thus said John Dee to Grendel Grettisson concerning Enochian: GG> Why WOULD it require Qabala? I see no link to the two prior to the GG> G Dawn. JD> JD> mmmmmm I suggest you take another look at the Sigillum Dei Ameth and JD> tell me the understanding of Hebrew and the Qabalah is not JD> necessary. JD> It seems to me that much of the paraphernalia people associate with the Enochian part of Dee's workings is not necessarily intended for use with the Enochian Calls and Tablets. Rather, it was intended for work with the Angels of the Heptarchia, which, to my way of thinking, is not of the strictly "enochian" part of Dee's work. This is particularly clear in regard to the table on which the shewstone is supposed to rest, and in regard to the Sigil of Ameth. There are seven talismans on the table, each related to one of the planets; these were specifically connected with the Heptarchic Kings by the angels giving the instructions. The letters around the edges of the table are derived from the names of the Kings and Princes of the Heptarchy, as is the famous 3 by 4 tablet which sits in the middle of the table. The names on the sigil (except for the 40-letter Name of God) are entirely derived from magick squares of Hebrew angelic names connected with the planets. The connection between the Sigil of Ameth and the table on one hand and the Calls and Elemental Tablets on the other is much more tenuous. The only real connection I know of is the name of one of the Golden Dawn's so-called "Watchmen of the Quarters", Thaaoth, whose name is derived therefrom. But again, this "elemental" watchman is recorded in Dee's notes as as a representative of the planet Mercury, _not_ as a ruler of an element. A similar division appears in Dee's practical use of these two systems. The Heptarchic conjurations are full of references to various Hebrew and Christian aspects of God, to the Hebrew Archangels, etc. so that one could validly derive a close connection to the cabalistic view from it. There are different sets of "Ministers" to be invoked at different hours of the day, following the cabalistic interpretation of planetary hours. Contrarywise, except for the name "Jehovah Tzabaoth" none of Dee's conjurations of the Angels of the Tablets contain any Hebrew or Cabalistic elements at all. And the use of this name appears to be a gratuitous insertion by Dee. Nor do even the planetary aspects of the Tablets require timing to planetary hours; any time of the day is good enough for any angel in the Tablets. The system is remarkably self- contained. ... Irony: God gave the tortoise a drag factor of .03 ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718