From: Commander Barbarella Area: ENOCHIAN To: Paul Hume 8 Aug 93 10:45:26 Subject: Re: 'The Enochian Workbook' UpdReq Paul Hume has been charged with the crime of consorting with Commander Barbarella. The evidence: PH> It is more akin to a math textbook that ONLY uses word problems, PH> and never actually uses mathematics to describe the processes. PH> The premise of Enochian is that the sonics of the language, the PH> letters of its construction, have inherent power within the PH> system - the translations are so that the magician understands PH> what is being said. But using English for the calls is analogous PH> to reading the English from a Berlitz phrasebook, rather than the PH> langiage of the person you are trying to talk to. PH> Hi Paul, I'll agree that it's like a math textbook, but the point was not that it is a place to start. In our area, there is no place, that I know of, that is practicing anything but Wicca that one can learn. If there is, it is so far underground that no one can find it. Most of the info we get around here, is from books and now these echoes. When one learns, in a traditional setting, they have a Master showing them the way though the GD or the tradition that they are following. When you are on your own, you get everything you can get your hands on to read then sort it out later as you become more familiar. Barb 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Grendel Grettisson Area: ENOCHIAN To: JOHN DEE 7 Aug 93 11:42:00 Subject: Enochian UpdReq > mmmmmm I suggest you take another look at the Sigillum Dei Ameth and > tell me the understanding of Hebrew and the Qabalah is not necessary. they are not necessary. I can get a translation. We were talking about working with Dee's system. Wassail, Grendel Grettisson 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Fir Area: ENOCHIAN To: Josh Norton 8 Aug 93 08:35:00 Subject: Comselha UpdReq JN> working with the angels have they employed the zodiac in the JN> "standard" JN> Solar sequence. Each and every time, without exception, they JN> have used JN> the precessional sequence which goes clockwise or "backwards" JN> around the JN> circle. They have never explained why they do this, and seem to JN> think JN> that that answer is self-evident, but their consistency is a JN> strong JN> argument, IMM, towards following the sequence they gave. I took an astrology class from Michael Cunningham at Stargazers Bookstore in New York and I believe he felt that a natal chart is read backwards, from the ascendent clockwise, to do a spiritual reading. He was heavily influenced by the C.C. Zain books. Blessed Be, Fir 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 9 Aug 93 19:46:62 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 07 Aug 93 20:41:48, Azoth wrote: MOG> Thank you for going through the trouble of MOG> posting that for me. I'm not yet sure how useful it MOG> will be to me, however, I just might be able to find MOG> some use for it...I usually can! ;) A> I certainly wish you better luck than I've had so far. Thanks, it sounds as if I might need the luck! ;) ;) MOG> I thought that primarily only the order had been changed between MOG> the two sets!?!? I know a few--mind you, a few--of A> ... MOG> about it, I personally never really understood why MOG> Dee changed the order of the tablets in the Recensa, MOG> in the first place! :) :) A> From a reading of Casaubon, it appears that Dee didn't do the A> rearrangement: Kelly did! They were trying together to integrate a A> series of changes being dictated by Raphael, and having a hard go of A> it, so Kelly went off to another part of the house for an hour or so, A> and came back with the Tabula Recensa. I think the new orientation of A> the Tables is most likely a Kellian faux pas,or a willful attempt to A> mislead Dee, perhaps; This could be very well so...However, while we are on the topic, academically speaking, would you recommend; the revised and reform or the original Tabula Recensa? It sounds as though, from a purely accademical standpoint, you distrust the Kelly revised version...I went over the Watchtowers one by one--comparing the two just yesterday, out of curiousity, and I found that there were very few deviences in letter appearances (contrary to what I originally thought). The only thing that really changed is simply the placement of the four Tables around the Tablet of Union (or Black Cross)...So now, I am most confused about what differences there are that cause such a quandry! A> I'm basing my current work on the Recensa tablets, but in the original A> orientation. I've got them in the computer, as well,so I'll gen up a A> character frequency analysis when I get the chance, sometime in the A> next few days. Stay tuned! Thanks, I shall eagerly await these results...:) :) A> I'd love to do some work on _Logaeth_, but it's never been A> published in its entirety so far as I know, and I only have a couple A> of pages. Know where we might get a microfiche of it,and what it might A> cost? I can read the fiche locally, but A> not the microfilm (of course we'd want large working prints to really A> play....) No, it has not been published at all--with the exception of five folios which are in almost every text on Dee! Yes, you can get microfilm of it...Write to the Sloane Collection at the British Museum (if you need the address, I can repost it, I just have to dig it out again--but it isn't really a problem! ) and ask for microfilm of Sloane MS 3189, THE BOOK OF ENOCH, or LIBER LOGOAETH. This version, is of course in Kelly's hand...I was getting around to sending off a request to them, too. Usually, it costs @ $15 American Dollars (in International Reply Coupons, of course!) plus postage. What you need to do, is write a preliminary request for microfilm of this specific manuscript, stating the MS number and full title (they will hardly ever look anything up for you--you must be as specific as possible!) inquiring to the cost for this particular film. They then will respond to your request letting you know whether or not it is available on microfilm, it's cost, method of payment, and where to send this payment. Then, you need to rewrite your request to send with the payment (they do not usually keep records of correspondence, so if you do not restate exactly what the payment is for, and what it is you specifically were wanting, they will be absolutely clueless and just disregard your payment.) Then, if all goes well, you should have a copy of the text on microfilm...It is that simple! ;) ;) Hope that helped some...and if you do need that address, just ask! Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 9 Aug 93 20:22:62 Subject: Re: Trithemius and more UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 07 Aug 93 21:04:06, Azoth wrote: MOG> Ciphers). Apparantly this friend of a friend, in his MOG> spare time, has utilized all the cryptology methods MOG> available to him to break Trithemius' code! Still, to A> What some people won't to for amusement! };-] Yeah! Kinda like the strange things we do for amusement! ;) ;) MOG> By the way, have you seen Leo Vinci's MOG> GMICALZOMA: An Enochian Dictionary? (It means what it A> I've had an eye out for the old edition, having seen it in A> a couple of bibliographies, but haven't seen it so far. A> Wasn't Leo Vinci one of Crowley's aliases (after, I A> believe, a character in H. R. Haggard's _She_?) Leo Vinci very well may have been one of Crowley's aliases, but this Leo Vinci is someone altoghether different...However, I did try doublechecking to see if Crowley had such a name for one of his own, but although I once remember seeing a complete listing of Crowley pseudonyms and aliases in some book, alas I could not locate it (of course as now I could use it! )... A> The Laycock dictionary has been the most useful to me, and I A> thoroughly enjoyed his introduction, though I disagree with his A> analysis and conclusions regarding Enochian 'numbers'. I have never read Laycock's book. I have a general tendency to keep well away from any Llewellyn book! I suppose I should somehow learn not to throw the proverbial "baby" out with the proverbial "bath water!" :) :) A> That there were indeed numeric equivalents assumes an Enochian gematria. Very much so! But several centuries later it is just as much a mystery to us as it was to Dee and Kelly! MOG> Oh wow! I will call them once it gets early MOG> afternoon. Thank you for posting me that address. I MOG> appreciate it. That price for the 17th century MOG> Agrippa was pretty steep, though! :) :) I suppose I A> Good luck! I really don't feel I have to own a piece to make use of A> it, but I wouldn't, in the right circumstances, think twice about A> paying what most would consider ridiculous sums for the privilege! I personally feel that owning an original manuscript is only worthwhile when it has not been published for hundreds of years, and has such a usefulness that it would be worth purchasing so that it may be published, rather than sit on some dusty shelf...Though, I cannot truly say that if I indeed had the money to wantonly spend on such purchases, unjustified, I would not do just that...purchase them for the simple sake of having them. MOG> Have you perused the early 17th century copy MOG> of STEGANOGRAPHIA in the Special Collections Dept of MOG> L.A. Public Library? I have been attempting to find A> Nope. I'm interminably stuck here on the East coast, but the LOC has A> some choice bits, as well. Yes, indeed. You are lucky enough to have access to the Mc Manus and De Young collections (and many other occult manuscript collections in the Library of Congress). So tell me if you ever unearth anything really monumental! ;) ;) MOG> the Manuscript number they have for it, so that I MOG> might be able to order it on microfilm (if they even MOG> do have it on microfilm!). I sent them a request A> How would you feel about getting prints made of something A> like that, and me scanning them into, say, .tif form for A> distribution? Has no one perhaps already done this? Prints of microfiche or mimeograph/photocopy? Either way, I would not have any qualms with this (though, it would take about two weeks for me to get microfiche duplicates made after I receive the film...photocopies I could do same day!)...I'm not sure if too many people have done just this, however there may be only one problem (I have no problem with this problem, but others might...): sometimes, microfilm is copyrighted by the company that photographs the manuscript, other times, the original depository may hold exclusive copyrights on the text...However, if it was for public domain distribution where no profit was being made, I would have no moral quandry with it regardless of copyright or not! A> Hehe. Well, having called their attention to the A> ... A> I as much as offered to help subsidise the re-spin A> of Trithemius (up to a point.....) if that would MOG> considering writing Phanes Press to volunteer my MOG> services to them, such as proof-reading, editing, A> ..... MOG> that they need done besides financial support. I MOG> suppose, after seeing your dedication to their MOG> causes, too, I will send off a letter to them this MOG> week-end. A> By all means! They deserve all our support, at least those A> of us with a scholarly bent, and a taste for rare old books that would A> otherwise be nearly impossible to find. By the way, what you were suggesting by scanning the text into .tif format is quite similar to what they are proposing to do...Phanes Press has stated plans to rebuild the Alexandrian Library online...They already have @1400 texts in ASCII format on disk...It is not unwholly reasonable that with a little bit of effort and help, that they could easily have the largest Occult Library on-line within a few years...Imagine if every scholar, such as us, input/scanned/uploaded only 10 texts a year! The end result could be amazing! Yes, though, they do deserve our support...and as time goes on, it seems they are coming up with similiar concepts/goals that I would oneday like to help happen...So, as time goes by, I find myself more willing to work with a group effort rather than compete, doing something similiar on my own. Anyways, I'm babbling at this point... Take care, I shall speak with you later... Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Christeos Pir 9 Aug 93 20:54:62 Subject: RE: MISC ENOCHIANA UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 07 Aug 93 09:06:20, Christeos Pir wrote: MOG> It could be a viable method (and probably the easiest) for MOG> determining the numerical value of a given word (going along with the MOG> aforementioned idea that the words, rather than the letters, may have MOG> numerical value) according to it's relative number of MOG> appearances/common usage in the Calls or Keys. CP> I still don't follow the logic of that. If the word "horse" and the CP> word "candle" (to pick to words at random) were to appear the same CP> number of times, it would be as if they had the same enumeration? Exactly! Isn't that the idea in Gematria...to convey the correspondance of ideas through a form of cosmological symbolism (the AlephBeth and it's numerations...)? If the words "horse" and "candle" in regular gematria (by the letter method) add up to the same number, then they correspond in a significant way, one way or another, with eachother...they are "synonyms" of a sort! Well, under the idea that was mentioned about the Enochian words having numeration, rather than the individual letters...if you worked under the assumption (hypothesis) that the numeration of words were based upon proportional ratio of it's appearance in the Clavicles as compared with that of other Enochian words; then if "horse" and "candle" have the same number of appearances, it might very well be assumed that they have some form of correlation betwixt the two...some form of sublime cosmological link! But of course this was just a plausible theory of how a form of Gematria might be obtained for the words rather than the individual letters... It was just a thought! CP> I suppose it could be construed as such in some manner (as a friend CP> said, you can justify _any_ system if your screw around enough with it), CP> but it's not what I'm used to thinking of as Gematria. Very much true, indeed! :) :) But since we are left without a reasonable method by which to obtain numeration for Enochian, as I believe that there was one intended but simply not revealed to Dee and Kelly, we are left to explore and experiment every method that we can possibly imagine, in order to attempt to discover such said numeration. Indeed, sometimes this does lead us down the path of folly. However, remember, the Fool is always the start and ending to every journey...;) ;) MOG> I suppose you are right...I guess I have been looking at MOG> decoding the Enochian language like this: Dee studied various ciphers CP> [...] MOG> begin to understand what went in his subconscious so that with a MOG> little bit of creative and innovative effort, might find the key in MOG> these particular ciphers to unlock the cipher that was altered and MOG> encoded by his subconscious mind (the end result being the Enochian MOG> language). Have I lost you yet! CP> No, and that's actually an interesting idea, though certainly one CP> that would take a _LOT_ of dedicated work to accomplish. Sounds like the CP> work of years to me, and I can think of a number of possible major CP> stumbling blocks (like the fact that he probably used several CP> different encoding schemes). But I'm certainly not trying to discourage CP> you -- if it be your Will, go for it! I'd be fascinated to hear the CP> results, whatever they were. Yeah, I would be fascinated to hear the results, too. You are absolutely right though...this is something that will most likely take YEARS of dedicated study to achieve! Oh well, I am just like that...and what makes it worse is that I have several (perhaps a couple dozen projects) that I am devotedly working on that all will take years to accomplish. Oftentimes, I find myself working on many projects that will never come to fruition in my lifetime...but I work earnestly after them, nonetheless! It is simply my hope that oneday my works might be carried on by others yet to come... MOG> I have not looked at this past the point that the MOG> Enochian Angels are simply extensions of our psyches (or originally MOG> Dee's psyche, anyways). I just cannot swallow the belief that there is MOG> any god but man... CP> Oh, you should try believing three impossible things before CP> breakfast every day. But actually, I have left the question of their CP> independant existence open, though I tend to lean towards seeing them as CP> indeed being at least as real as the postman (and usually more reliable CP> ). This is very wise advice! Was it not De Unamuno who said, "In order to attain the impossible one must attempt the absurd." Or, like the infamous Golden Dawn initiate who took the magickal motto, "Credo quia impossible!" I think that I WILL begin my day by pondering three impossibilities and attempting to accept their possibile realities... MOG> This is true. Most-times, what we find is what we seek... CP> Heard that. Whitcomb calls this the Law of Attention. And Nasruddin CP> said, "When a thief meets a saint, all he sees are his pockets." Alright, another Cosmic Law! MOG> As for what makes Hebrew so special...NO-THING MOG> really. The only reason why I feel Hebrew is important to occultists CP> You misunderstood my question. I didn't mean, "Why is Hebrew CP> important to Qabalists," but "Why is Hebrew one of the few languages that CP> has a viable Gematria?" Oh, oops! Okay, then, in that case....The reason why I had stated that Hebrew was one of the few languages that has a viable form of Gematria is that it was originally designed for the purpose of conveying the cosmological relationship between concepts of the divine and nature through matematical representation, whereas most AlephBeths were for the purpose of representing thoughts/sounds of a previously spoken language through the medium of written symbols. Most Semitic languages were originally alpha/numerical rather than alph/phoenetic as in the case of most other languages. Phoenecian, Arabic, Chaldean, various Bedouin dialetics, Hebrew, possibly Aramaic, and even maybe Egyptian Hieroglyphic are all examples of alpha/numeric languages (though I beg to differ on this later example!). Greek, Roman, Cyrillic, Coptic, and most others were originally alpha/phoenetic languages that latter had numerical concepts added on to them. Therefore, in these cases, the only time when Gematria symbolism is truly valid is when it was intentionally (or subconsciously, I suppose) intended. With Hebrew and like languages, on the other hand, Gematria is a universal concept tied in with the language itself. As the language itself was based upon the early Judaical view of the universe--it inherently contains that symbolism in all words--in all letters, despite what may be intentionally or unintentionally conveyed...as the Hebrew language was designed to symbolize universal constants, so in itself it becomes a pattern of these constants and concepts... Any questions?!?! I don't know about you, but I ended up confusing myself! MOG> Most other Semitic languages (including the MOG> Arabic, Chaldean, even possibly Egyptian hieroglyphic languages, too) MOG> were "designed" this same way. CP> So are the Arabic parts of 777 accurate, do you know? I have no idea...My last girlfriend started to study Arabic (she was Lebanesse by birth) and I picked up a small understanding of the alphabet and a little vocabulary, but not enough to understand Arabic gematria or the accuracy of Crowley's Arabic notations and correspondences in 777. However, I would, by nature (or Crowley's Nature), tend to question his scholastic accuracy in any language but his native tongue. I know that some of the Greek he used in his Greek Qabala notes were very inaccurate, and I have been told the Coptic names in 777 are oftentimes mispelled (most likely for the sake of continuity of adhering to his concept of the Law of Correspondance). MOG> As for Greek, it was solely a phoenetic MOG> language until the time that Orpheus returned from his travels in MOG> Egypt, or so the legend goes, anyways. CP> Oh yeah, that's when he was writing the book that Abramelin later CP> gave to Abraham, isn't it? ;-) Where on earth (or astral) do you come up with these "universal conspiracy theories"? You must be a member of the Bavarian Illuminati! ;) ;) For the record though, I thought Orpheus was early 3rd century B.C.E.! ;) ;) MOG> Or call them at: (616) 456-5740 CP> Thanks! No problem! :) :) Take care, I shall speak with you later. Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718