From: Mark O. Garrison Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 6 Aug 93 08:45:38 Subject: Re: Trithemius and more UpdReq DO WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW In a message dated 05 Aug 93 21:08:04, Azoth wrote: MOG> ...And no, I must confess that I am not familiar in MOG> the least with Deacon...What was his book titled? A> _John Dee_, would you believe? By Richard Deacon, published in 1968ev A> by Frederick Muller, in England; no ISBN on my copy, but I've not A> heard that it's particularly rare, though no doubt long out of print. A> It's a hoot, it really is, painting Dee as a sort of Tudor version of A> James Bond, and harping endlessly on the cryptographic aspects of his A> studies,along with the diplomatic and political details of his A> travels. Some of his sub rosa communications were actually signed 007! A> Actually, I was being a little facetious in referring to the crypto A> theory of the _Steganographia_ as modern; Dee is himself on record as A> holding out the same opinion, no doubt hoping to fool somebody into A> overlooking that totally un-cryptographic third book. I will look for that book, even though it does sound more humourous than informative. :) :) As for STEGANOGRAPHIA being cyptographic or not, I am not really sure what I personnally think...however, something you may find amusing (and I'm not sure of the validity of this story or not), but a friend of mine who is a computer programmer with the F.B.I. has a friend in the C.I.A. who is a cryptologist (specializing in Computerized Ciphers). Apparantly this friend of a friend, in his spare time, has utilized all the cryptology methods available to him to break Trithemius' code! Still, to this day, he has been unsuccessful, but is still determined to break it! Perhaps, then, there really is no code to the text at all! The only thing, though, that made me look at this story twice, is the fact that neither one of these men are interested or have any background in the occult, in the least...one, in fact, is a Xtian! Go figure! :) :) A> John French's bio of Dee is a _lot_ better, and used to be available A> at Crown Books; I'm still looking for Charlotte Fell Smith's. If you A> haven't already read it, you ought to grab Nicholas Clulee's _John A> Dee's Natural Philosophy_ from Routledge, ISBN 0-415-03122-2; less A> depth about Dee's life, and more about his work, including a great A> examination of the _Monas_. Yes, I have both French's book, as well as Clulee's. I have enjoyed both immensely. The chapter in French's bio on Dee's library at Mortlake was invaluable... By the way, have you seen Leo Vinci's GMICALZOMA: An Enochian Dictionary? (It means what it says when you know what it means) It just came out a couple of months ago (late 92) from Neptune Press. I was excited when I saw it listed, but after I got it, I was most disappointed...luckily it was an inexpensive soft-cover. MOG> pence. :) :) By the way, where ever on this earth MOG> did you find a late French copy of the PICATRIX for MOG> sale? I would be most interested in possibly MOG> purchasing it if it is still available. :) A> Dealers are always sending me catalogs and brochures and suchlike. I A> took a fast look through those on hand, and I think I must have A> already tossed the relevant piece (can't bear the temptation!) If A> you're seriously in pursuit of one of those originals, I'd first off A> suggest polling W & V Daley Limited. They're at 8216 Melrose Avenue in A> LA,or PO Box 69160, LA, CA 90069, or (213) 658-8515. I've got their A> Catalog #61 here now, which lists a late 19th Century _Dragon Rouge_ A> at only $300, and a really nice _Enchiridion_, the Ancona of 1667, in A> 18th Century calf at $1875, and lots of other goodies. (...the London A> translation of Agrippa, 1651, at $2250...groan....) Oh wow! I will call them once it gets early afternoon. Thank you for posting me that address. I appreciate it. That price for the 17th century Agrippa was pretty steep, though! :) :) I suppose I will have to donate plasma a whole lot of times to save up the spare cash for that! (It was just a joke...if in case you were wondering!) MOG> You would be most suprised about how many MOG> Enochian "scholars" I have met--especially recently-- MOG> who have never even heard of Trithemius! It's most MOG> shocking indeed! :) A> Har! The poor old Abbot has been ripped off and forgotten A> about for a long time, though bits of his work show up in A> the _Magus_, and the _Lemegeton_, and at least one edition A> of Agrippa's 'Fourth Book' of the _Occult Philosophy_. It's really a A> damned shame that portions of the _Steganographia_ have been A> irretrievably lost since Dee's day. Have you perused the early 17th century copy of STEGANOGRAPHIA in the Special Collections Dept of L.A. Public Library? I have been attempting to find the Manuscript number they have for it, so that I might be able to order it on microfilm (if they even do have it on microfilm!). I sent them a request giving the name of the manuscript and date, but apparantly my letter was ignored completely...they are probably too busy to look anything up for me... MOG> No, I have not heard anything about a typeset MOG> version of THE OCCULT PHILOSOPHY. I have no A> Just checking. };-] I have no connections with Llewellyn or any other A> publisher, but the booksellers I deal with hear a lot of the industry A> gossip.... (like: Idries Shah and Arkon A> Daraul are really the same guy!) Really...that is good information to know (Shah/Daraul)...If you end up hearing any rumours that are really juicy :) :), be sure to let me know... A> Hey, I _like_ the idea of communicating with dolphins, any A> which way! My thoughts on Trithemius have gone out with my A> subscription to the forthcoming _Magical Calendar_, along A> with properly suggestive queries regarding alternate scheduling! MOG> ???Exactly what do you mean about "alternate scheduling"??? A> Hehe. Well, having called their attention to the fact of Dee's current A> popularity (as if it wasn't obvious from their own poll) and noted the A> role of Trithemius in the development of Dee's magical philosophy and A> practical cabala, I as much as offered to help subsidise the re-spin A> of Trithemius (up to a point.....) if that would help their decision- A> making processes. };-] Wowzers! Good form, I must say! Yes, I too, would be willing to practically die for a good typeset version of STEGANOGRAPHIA...but unforunately, I don't have the funds (at this moment) to offer to help subsidizing its printing. On an aside, I have been seriously considering writing Phanes Press to volunteer my services to them, such as proof-reading, editing, inputing material for their proposed on-line Alexandrian library (see the ALEXANDRIAN issue 2, pg. 29) and so on. It really sounds as if they need all the help that they can muster...and there is a lot that they need done besides financial support. I suppose, after seeing your dedication to their causes, too, I will send off a letter to them this week-end. Take care, I shall speak with you later. Love is the law, love under will, Mark O. Garrison 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Paul Hume Area: ENOCHIAN To: Commander Barbarella 7 Aug 93 11:06:04 Subject: Re: 'The Enochian Workbook' UpdReq Barb - Leaving aside the aesthetic considerations when Rome dropped the use of Latin (and a certain loss of community worldwide, which was the tradeoff for increased relevance to eack local congregation), the cases are not, inmy opinion comparable. It is more akin to a math textbook that ONLY uses word problems, and never actually uses mathematics to describe the processes. The premise of Enochian is that the sonics of the language, the letters of its construction, have inherent power within the system - the translations are so that the magician understands what is being said. But using English for the calls is analogous to reading the English from a Berlitz phrasebook, rather than the langiage of the person you are trying to talk to. Paul 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718