From: AZOTH Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 24 Apr 92 14:44:00 Subject: Re: Enochiana UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. -=> Quoting Vitriol to Azoth <=- V> Oh, aye... I agree with all this, and it's well put, but that's not V> what I was asking. My "why is that, d'you suppose" was directed to your V> statement that Enochian took MORE work than some other methods. The Enochian material represents MORE work because, at least in the GD and Crowleyan redaction, it resumes literally _all_ of the GD course of instruction and reduces the mass to a highly concentrated schematic of the Work. In this I'm only agreeing with Regardie's notes on the Concourse of the Forces. I suspect, however, that even a cursory involvement in Enochian magick would open so many doors that one might be hard pressed to open them all. V> Then again, maybe it just *ain't* all that easy! We can say why, in V> scientific terms, climbing K2 is hard work, but it's irrelevant. The V> fact remains that it IS hard work. The answer may be: "because it is." Good answer! A> So what say I ring you later this week, and we'll see about getting A> you set with ESM? V> Thanks. What can I offer you in return? Well..... If you would consider keeping us posted on your progress and experiences with the Enochian material, I would certainly consider _that_ more than adequate compensation! V> As long as I'm mooching, have you got a good Enochian ritual a la V> LBRP, LBRH, Star Ruby, etc? As we discussed the other night, the work I'm currently engaged with partakes heavily of the LHP (ala Grant, Bertiaux, etc.) and I am more than reluctant to expose _anyone_ to such highly unorthodox ritual use of the Keys. Both the LBRP and LBRH can be quite easily altered to use purely Enochian terms and imagery, however, and the Temple Openings in Chanokh are _very_ good indeed. I'll drop EWAC in the mail tomorrow, and here's wishing you much success! Love is the law, love under will. ... Old programmers never die: They exit to a higher shell. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: AZOTH Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 24 Apr 92 15:08:00 Subject: Enochian Tarot UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. -=> Quoting Vitriol to Steven Craig <=- V> I haven't run across the "Concourse", unless it's part of the Complete V> GD. Capra's book is one of my favorites. The Dancing Wu Li Masters is V> good too. The Coucourse is in the Complete GD, Volume 10 (or the old GD, Book 9.) Have you ever come across _Goedel,_Escher,_Bach_ by Douglas Hofstadter? Sorta like the Tao of Self-referential Systems... V> I was immediately drawn to the deck as soon as I saw it. I find the V> artwork ranges from "interesting" to "bad", yet it still has a Pull, as V> if it may be better not to look at it in a pick-it-apart analytical V> way, and to accept it for what it is instead. Rather like the language, V> come to think of it. By this I mean that they are better dealt with by V> Binah, than by the college termpaper type of intellectualization. Yes, yes, yes! Precisely put! There is Power in the images which will remain untouched if they are only approached intellectually (which is, come to think of it, probably true of _any_ Tarot...) Sally Glassman, the artist responsible, is working a sort of 'Enochian Vodoun' current, and the imagery is psychoactive in some _very_ non-rational ways. Frater Nachash, down at HaditNet, told me that she's also done the New Orleans OTO Lodge decoration in a similar vein. That I'd really like to see. The image of MAZ, 6th of the major arcana, I find especially haunting. Love is the law, love under will. ... Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: ENOCHIAN To: The Image 25 Apr 92 01:35:20 Subject: Re: OrgFun UpdReq -=> The Image sent a message to William Hunter on 19 Apr 92 11:54:18 <=- -=> OrgFun <=- TI> In any case, my address hight; Singh Khanna TI> 591 Peabody Rd., Apt.# 106 TI> Vacaville, CA 95678 TI> TI> And before you make a snide comments, I'll have you know that ALL TI> the tough guys live on Peabody ! Tough guys? In Vacantville? 418 ... Manibus accedat ignis et sacerdote virgo, dicens: 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: ENOCHIAN To: AZOTH 24 Apr 92 22:18:00 Subject: Re: Enochiana Rec'd UpdReq -=> AZOTH sent a message to Vitriol on 04-24-92 14:44 <=- -=> Re: Enochiana <=- Brother: Thanks for the "land line" last night. A> The Enochian material represents MORE work because, at least in the GD A> and Crowleyan redaction, it resumes literally _all_ of the GD course A> of instruction and reduces the mass to a highly concentrated schematic A> of the Work. In this I'm only agreeing with Regardie's notes on the A> Concourse of the Forces. I read that. It's just another item in a long list of "Is that just the way things are, or is it so-and-so's slant on things?" A> I suspect, however, that even a cursory A> involvement in Enochian magick would open so many doors that one A> might be hard pressed to open them all. This is what I'm hoping, and intend to find out. A> Well..... If you would consider keeping us posted on your progress and A> experiences with the Enochian material, I would certainly consider A> _that_ more than adequate compensation! That I will. You understand (this is not a question) that there may be a period where the message is "Nothing yet!" A> As we discussed the other night, the work I'm currently engaged with A> partakes heavily of the LHP (ala Grant, Bertiaux, etc.) and I am more A> than reluctant to expose _anyone_ to such highly unorthodox ritual use A> of the Keys. Yes, fascinating as it sounded, I think I'll start with the Chevy, and leave the Testarossa for later! ;-) A> Both the LBRP and LBRH can be quite easily altered to use A> purely Enochian terms and imagery, however, and the Temple Openings in A> Chanokh are _very_ good indeed. That's the line along which I was thinking. It shouldn't take much to devise something, and tweak it until its right. A> I'll drop EWAC in the mail tomorrow, and here's wishing you much A> success! Thanks again. 93 ... "Within the symbol there is a design which moves." -Brancusi. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: ENOCHIAN To: AZOTH 24 Apr 92 22:23:00 Subject: Re: Enochian Tarot Rec'd UpdReq -=> AZOTH sent a message to Vitriol on 04-24-92 15:08 <=- -=> Enochian Tarot <=- A> The Coucourse is in the Complete GD, Volume 10 (or the old GD, Book A> 9.) Have you ever come across _Goedel,_Escher,_Bach_ by Douglas A> Hofstadter? Sorta like the Tao of Self-referential Systems... Funny you should ask... ;-) The two books on top of my nightstand presently, are the Complete GD and the Hofstadter. I figured out about the Concourse today, when I spent half the day irritating my coworkers by ignoring them and reading that section of the GD book. 93 ... I don't care if it's impossible - as long as it WORKS! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: AZOTH Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 25 Apr 92 20:30:00 Subject: Re: Enochiana UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. -=> Quoting Vitriol to AZOTH <=- A> As we discussed the other night, the work I'm currently engaged with A> partakes heavily of the LHP (ala Grant, Bertiaux, etc.) and I am more A> than reluctant to expose _anyone_ to such highly unorthodox ritual use A> of the Keys. V> Yes, fascinating as it sounded, I think I'll start with the Chevy, and V> leave the Testarossa for later! ;-) I think Chanokh is more the Testarossa, and my own the Chevy (never mind the slicks, zoomies and blower...and that nitrous is for _me_, not the mill!) };-] A> Both the LBRP and LBRH can be quite easily altered to use A> purely Enochian terms and imagery, however, and the Temple Openings in A> Chanokh are _very_ good indeed. V> That's the line along which I was thinking. It shouldn't take much to V> devise something, and tweak it until its right. I found a sample of that kind of work; I'll upload it to Cat House next time I log on there. I saw your query to Bobby Meizer on BaphoNet. Your summary reassured me that I really _hadn't_ missed something important. Care to speculate what the lad's on about? I've got plenty of patience, but I really don't like to pollute the Echo with _unnecessary_ animosity, though I'm as game for a brawl as anybody if there's something tangible at stake. Love is the law, love under will. ... I don't care if it's impossible - as long as it WORKS! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: AZOTH Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 25 Apr 92 20:46:00 Subject: GEB UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. -=> Quoting Vitriol to AZOTH <=- A> Have you ever come across _Goedel,_Escher,_Bach_ by Douglas A> Hofstadter? Sorta like the Tao of Self-referential Systems... V> Funny you should ask... ;-) V> The two books on top of my nightstand presently, are the Complete GD V> and the Hofstadter. I figured out about the Concourse today, when I V> spent half the day irritating my coworkers by ignoring them and V> reading that section of the GD book. More than half, I estimate, of the software engineers I work with have read that book at least once, and own to having enjoyed it immensely. I've read it twice in recent history, and enjoyed it more the second time around, since I already knew the punch line and could more readily appreciate the subtle jokes he plays. Magick (and, for that matter, Thelema) is itself a wonderful tautological construct, with the additional kicker that its creator, or perpetrator, designed it in such a way that NON-selfreferential understanding, and conduct, would ultimately result. Love is the law, love under will. ... There is no law beyond. Do what thou wilt. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 26 Apr 92 14:14:26 Subject: RE: Loose thread... Sent UpdReq Hey, 'Z', don't think I'm jumping on you, but look at "Azoth's" message. Whatever his earlier messages THAT message was a slander of Kenneth Anger presented by someone obviously ignorant of and uninterested in the facts of the specific case. I know that some people consider it hostile to criticize those who slander, lie, and calumniate others behind their backs. I consider it a duty. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 26 Apr 92 14:15:50 Subject: RE: Loose thread... Sent UpdReq In a message to Vitriol written on Saturday, April 25, 1992 at 17:24:15, Azoth writes: Azo> Since I don't know the guy from Adam (or Eve), I refuse to speculate, Azo> but he's certainly fun to watch.... Certainly it must be easier for you than looking in a mirror! 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Bobby Meizer Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 26 Apr 92 14:19:22 Subject: RE: Loose thread... Sent UpdReq If you bothered to read your own blatherings you would see that you accused someone you don't know of robbing someone else who you don't know in a matter of which you also know nothing. If you had any class you would apologize to everyone on this echo, and you would take a good look at your careless habits of malicious gossip. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Tim Maroney Area: ENOCHIAN To: Gerald Del Campo 26 Apr 92 21:28:44 Subject: RE: Re: Enochian Works Sent UpdReq In a message to Tim Maroney written on Sunday, April 19, 1992 at 12:41:00, Gerald Del Campo writes: GDC> In a message dated 06 Apr 92 22:34:58, Tim Maroney wrote: TM> I am also quite skeptical of extrahuman origins for the thiPSTOVAL Oasis: GDC> Badges? We don't need no stinking badges! GDC> --- DLG Pro v0.991/DLGMail GDC> * Origin: Shades of Reality BBS <> (503) 772-0569 [V.32] (1:349/7) The above is a complete quote of how your message arrived here. If it was important, you should resend it. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: ENOCHIAN To: Azoth 26 Apr 92 04:26:06 Subject: Re: Enochiana UpdReq -=> Azoth sent a message to Vitriol on 04-25-92 20:30 <=- -=> Re: Enochiana <=- A> I think Chanokh is more the Testarossa, and my own the Chevy (never A> mind the slicks, zoomies and blower...and that nitrous is for _me_, not A> the mill!) };-] Reminds me of the T-shirt I saw at the Harley Drags in Hagerstown last year: "Nitrous is for burning, alcohol is for drinking, and gasoline is for washing parts!" A> I found a sample of that kind of work; I'll upload it to Cat House A> next time I log on there. Umm... if those are the ones Tony's got in his Enochian filearea, I've got them. LBRP, LBRH, weapon charging, etc? BTW, have you got the Geoffrey James, and is it worth the $40 asking price? A> I saw your query to Bobby Meizer on BaphoNet. Your summary reassured A> me that I really _hadn't_ missed something important. Care to speculate A> what the lad's on about? I've got plenty of patience, but I really A> don't like to pollute the Echo with _unnecessary_ animosity, though I'm A> as game for a brawl as anybody if there's something tangible at stake. Beats me. Maybe he's been around Tim too long? ;-) Seems to me the proper thing would be for Lady Byron to help set the boy straight as to the conversation "before you were so rudely interrupted" . 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * Rise to Adore the Mystery of Love. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: Vitriol Area: ENOCHIAN To: Steven Craig 26 Apr 92 04:26:08 Subject: Re: Getting Started... UpdReq -=> Steven Craig sent a message to Vitriol on 04-25-92 15:27 <=- -=> Re: Getting Started... <=- SC> Regarding your two questions, one should indeed start SC> with TEX and work their way systematically upward. No SC> fair skipping the gnoses of doubt, solitude, sorrow etc. SC> just to get to the "Daughter of BABALON" Aethyr. :-) The SC> experiences in each of the Aethyrs (from my experience) SC> build upon one another to some extent. That is, I may have SC> an experience in the 30th Aethyr which is presented in a SC> more complex or wide-stretching form when I work the 29th. I see. I had a sneaking suspicion that this might be one of the places that the "rules" would have good reason to be followed. SC> As for your comment that "the boogeyman'll get your if SC> you're not careful", I don't think this is any truer of SC> Enochian than any other system. As a matter of fact, I SC> find the Enochian system much better organized than most, SC> and haven't run into any unusual difficulties working the SC> system. OK. I'm not sure just what those people were talking about, though it might be akin to the following: I don't have my journal from that year before me, but some 8 - 9 years ago I had a vision in which I was in a place in knew I "should not be", that is, was not ready for. It involved a teaching in which I saw that magickal creation was done by creating a "bubble", a void or contained vacuum, enlarging it, then introducing a "seed" which would expand and develop itself, filling the bubble, and thus coming into being. Just about the time that I was absorbing all this (I was seeing it in a well in the woods, in my vision), something seized me. It was not "evil", just stern and MUCH stronger than I. I remember it laughing mockingly at my attempts to get loose- "like a puppy" I wrote in my journal later. I tried to banish it, attempting to draw a pentagram with blue fire, then a circle about myself, but "he" simply held me suspended. I was finally flung back with a warning to obey the rules next time. If the Billy Goat Gruff doesn't have his sh*t together, the troll *will* let him know it! SC> Regarding different versions of the calls, I know Schueler's book SC> has less poetically ambitious translations into English, but I think SC> the Enochian is the same (which is what I use anyway). I SC> also am unaware of any difference between the Enochian SC> given in the GD vs. that in Chanokh, apart from possibly SC> some different spellings (which is to be expected). OK, so the only differences are in the English? Seems to me I've seen some different spellings in the Enochian as well. But perhaps the pronunciations are the same? (cats eyes vs catsize?) 418 * BWave/QWK v0.96 * I hear Enochian, but you can't come in... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: AZOTH Area: ENOCHIAN To: Vitriol 27 Apr 92 22:44:00 Subject: Enochiana UpdReq Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. V> have you got the Geoffrey James, and is it worth the $40 asking price? Yes, sir, I have and use it. Unless I'm mistaken, it's gone out of print; so if you have a source, I would recommend taking advantage of it. James took some liberties with the Latin of the Heptarchic section, according to Bob Turner (my own Latin is nearly nonexistent, so who am I to say?) The Enochian material is superb, however, including many fascinating culls from the _True_and_Faithful_, and the _best_ detailed lexical treatment of the Keys I've seen anywhere. None of the later work from Mathers or Crowley is included, so EWAC is still valuable, but the Dee material is presented in an eminently usable grimoire format, with appropriate incantations included for invoking the tablet spirits. If you don't mind the coin, it's well worth it (I suspect it will, in the next few years, appreciate considerably in value, if the current asking prices of other out-of-print Enochiana are any guide), and is as nicely printed and bound as you might want. V> Beats me. Maybe he's been around Tim too long? ;-) Maybe. Thought I saw a sycophantic burble from Tim in the same vein, come to think of it. Like any proper acolyte of Sutekh, Lady Byron, if she's paying any attention at all, is probably just waiting for first blood... };-] I've got EWAC packaged and ready to go; I'll drop it by the post office tomorrow. Bit of a delay this weekend; didn't get out at all. Instead played around on Windows 3.1 and Word 2.0a, making it all play on top of DrDOS 6 (easy, if you've got all the right patches...and LOTS of empty disk!) Love is the law, love under will. ... Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718 From: John Gold Area: ENOCHIAN To: All 26 Apr 92 10:33:18 Subject: MAGICK Atlantis Rising BBS (PIN) Occult..Metaphysical..30+subs 24hrs. NeT..Files..714-357-2447 O.T.O./G.D./Pagan/BOTA/ Welcome! The BBS for the Advanced Mind... CALL NOW.....714-357-2447....... 718499927771849992777184999277718499927771849992777184999277718